RetireJapan

Excuse my complete ignorance on this topic but I was wondering if someone could advise.

I currently have a little money in a NISA with a SAISON investment fund that is not very good at all. This will automatically be transferred to a new NISA set up for me by SAISON when 2024 rolls around. I would like to sell that (about 1.4 mil) and move my NISA and the funds to a new broker (probably SBI or Rakuten). I also have 2mil or so of spare cash lying around doing nothing that I would like to add to top up the NISA to near the annual limit.

What are the time constraints on this? As long as I don't make any transactions, can I apply for the cancelation of the SAISON NISA investment at any time (in the remaining few weeks of 2023 or in 2024) and then apply for a new NISA with a new broker and transfer all the cash in at any time in 2024? Or are there deadlines/ time constraints for these things? What is my best course of action?

JohKun wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 3:09 pm 1) not a good idea toll rollover into new NISA.

Best to avoid the term 'rollover'. It is no longer possible with NISA and could be confusing.

(rollover was the process of moving NISA investments that reached the end of their tax free period into a new NISA at cost)

JohKun wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 3:09 pm 1) not a good idea to transfer into new NISA. Once you do it, and sell it, you can only reinvest 1m within 2024.
I’d sell now in 2023. And try to reinvest into a better fund, 1) either in the old NISA if allocation is left and you’re ok to sell within 5 years. Or 2) in new NISA in 2024. That way you’ll still have room for more investments with fresh money in 2024.

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately it seems it's too late to cancel the NISA and sell before the end of the year as Saison stopped allowing applications for this year on the 15th so it would have to be next year.

Could you explain how you calculated that I would only be able to reinvest 1m in 2024 instead of 2.4m?

I should clarify:
Saison have stopped accepting applications in 2023 for the documents necessary to cancel NISA. But I guess one could still simply sell the contents of the NISA this year and close the NISA next year. Would that make a difference?

JohKun wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:55 am

Owly wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:51 am I should clarify:
Saison have stopped accepting applications in 2023 for the documents necessary to cancel NISA. But I guess one could still simply sell the contents of the NISA this year and close the NISA next year. Would that make a difference?

Exactly, just sell the funds.
Then the next NISA you can invest 2.4mil (growth NISA).

In case the 1.4mil are transferred and you sell in 2024, through the transfer you’ll have used up 1.4 out of the 2.4mil. So in 2024 you can only put in 1.0mil into the growth NISA (and 1.2mil into the Tsumitate portion)

I see. Thanks very much!

Owly wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:51 am I should clarify:
Saison have stopped accepting applications in 2023 for the documents necessary to cancel NISA. But I guess one could still simply sell the contents of the NISA this year and close the NISA next year. Would that make a difference?

Previously, if a NISA is 100% unused it can be moved. As soon as it is used it is stuck with that broker.

You cannot move your 2024 now as it is the schrodinger's state of existing and not existing. Once it appears in January, there should be a way to move it over. However, again, it must be 100% unused

Owly wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:59 am

JohKun wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:55 am

Owly wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:51 am I should clarify:
Saison have stopped accepting applications in 2023 for the documents necessary to cancel NISA. But I guess one could still simply sell the contents of the NISA this year and close the NISA next year. Would that make a difference?

Exactly, just sell the funds.
Then the next NISA you can invest 2.4mil (growth NISA).

In case the 1.4mil are transferred and you sell in 2024, through the transfer you’ll have used up 1.4 out of the 2.4mil. So in 2024 you can only put in 1.0mil into the growth NISA (and 1.2mil into the Tsumitate portion)

I see. Thanks very much!

Actually I think what JohKun is saying is incorrect.

Any 2023 NISA purchases you made have nothing to do with NISA from 2024, in my understanding.

If you want to change nisa provider, before making any nisa purchases in 2024, cancel your Saison NISA. (If you make a Saison NISA purchase in 2024, you’d be stuck with Saison for 2024)

Cancel whenever you can, this year or next; just do not make any new purchases via Saison in 2024.

After canceling Saison NISA, and establishing a NISA with another broker, so long as you make no purchases with Saison in 2024, you should be able to make NISA purchases with your new broker once set up.

As for your Saison funds, I think you can sell this year or next.

JohKun wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 3:42 pm The original concept is that the OP provider will transfer the investments to the new NISA as the original post described.

This is not possible so this thread has become very confusing.

Please try to only answer questions where you know what you are talking about.

Owly wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:33 am
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately it seems it's too late to cancel the NISA and sell before the end of the year as Saison stopped allowing applications for this year on the 15th so it would have to be next year.

Could you explain how you calculated that I would only be able to reinvest 1m in 2024 instead of 2.4m?

Each broker has a process to change to another broker for NISA. Follow that process. Call them if necessary.

Owly wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:44 pmThis will automatically be transferred to a new NISA set up for me by SAISON when 2024 rolls around.

This is not the case. Probably what they mean is they will automatically open a new (empty) NISA for you next year, and possibly that any regular payments will start going into that new account from next year. The existing funds will remain in the old account (or be transferred into a taxable account if they were bought in 2019).

Owly wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:44 pmI would like to sell that (about 1.4 mil) and move my NISA and the funds to a new broker

You cannot move the funds within the NISA. You can only change provider for funds you will invest from next year. Even after changing your provider for next year, you will still keep your existing NISA accounts for previous years.

You can sell the Saison funds whenever you want, but if there are tax free periods remaining (anything invested 2020 onwards) you would lose the remaining tax free period. Buying in the 2024 NISA would use your New NISA 2024 annual and lifetime allowance.

Unless you think the funds will lose value or perform badly, it's best to wait until their tax free period expires before selling (or sell just before, if you want to avoid tax entirely), to maximize the tax free capital gain you will be entitled to.

Owly wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:44 pmWhat are the time constraints on this? As long as I don't make any transactions, can I apply for the cancelation of the SAISON NISA investment at any time (in the remaining few weeks of 2023 or in 2024) and then apply for a new NISA with a new broker and transfer all the cash in at any time in 2024?

You need to make sure you will definitely not put any money into the Saison NISA in 2024.

After that, follow the NISA transfer procedure to get a new NISA opened at a new broker.

Once it's open, you can invest new money in the new NISA next year. You can sell the old NISA funds whenever you want.