UK Subject Access Request Problem

[Mr Tardy]

I recently made an SAR to get the information I needed to complete form CF83, namely the date I last paid National Insurance contributions.

I had the SAR sent to my home address in the UK, and had scans of the info sent over. However, there is no information on the last NI contributions.

All there is is a table of information on: Tax year, Income or credit type, Earnings, Tax paid, NI paid, and Ni credits

Is there any way to get this information?

I made an employment record SAR from the UK.Gov HMRC SAR page, as it seemed to cover everything needed. I also limited the search to my years in the UK.

Any advice welcome.

[kuma]

They don't make it easy, do they?

Upon typing in your NINO, HMRC should have access to your records, including the piece of info they're asking you for here...

An answer to this question may not be critical to your application. How do you stand regarding the eligibility criteria for Class 2 and Class 3? What were your circumstances before leaving the UK?

If you were working in the UK immediately before departure, it might be reasonable to put your departure date as last payment of NI contributions, and make a note in your covering letter that this answer is true to the best of your knowledge, that you tried to ascertain your NI/employment records via an SAR, etc.

Are you gunning for the 16 years of back payments? If so, I'd encourage application as soon as possible. Feel free to ask any other Qs before sending.

For info for others, roughly how long did your SAR response take?

[Mr Tardy]

Thanks for the advice Kuma!

I’m gunning for 16 years of back payment, so Class 2 payments are critical. As for eligibility criteria, I THINK I may qualify for Class 2. Referencing the 3 main criteria from the Retire Japan wiki:

1. I’m employed outside the UK, and this has been continuous, save for a few days switching between jobs.

2A. I lived in the UK from birth before the period for which NICs are to be paid

As for 2B (or before going abroad, you paid a set amount in NICs for 3 years or more), I’m not sure. I was in several ‘approved training’ courses and on jobseker’s as well as in employment over the 4 years before leaving. I guess this doesn’t matter because of my 2A status.

3. Immediately before going abroad, I was ordinarily an employed earner in the UK.

As for my SAR response, from the document date - it took 26 days from online application. Took a little longer for the letter to arrive, but it was over Christmas…

I do have some questions which spring to mind:

1. On my cover letter to CF83, in detailing my employment in Japan, is DD/MM/YY format required for job start/end times, or is MM/YY adequate?

2. Do jobs need to be labled full time or part-time? And if so, how are the Japanese semi-full time jobs denoted?

3. Not quite CF83, but I spent a LOT of time in tertiary education in the UK - does Uni make any contribution to NICs? How about secondary education?

Cheers!

[kuma]

I’m gunning for 16 years of back payment, so Class 2 payments are critical. As for eligibility criteria, I THINK I may qualify for Class 2. Referencing the 3 main criteria from the Retire Japan wiki:

1. I’m employed outside the UK, and this has been continuous, save for a few days switching between jobs.

2A. I lived in the UK from birth before the period for which NICs are to be paid

As for 2B (or before going abroad, you paid a set amount in NICs for 3 years or more), I’m not sure. I was in several ‘approved training’ courses and on jobseker’s as well as in employment over the 4 years before leaving. I guess this doesn’t matter because of my 2A status.

3. Immediately before going abroad, I was ordinarily an employed earner in the UK.

Sounds like definite yeses here for 1&2 and a provisional yes for 3... provided HMRC reach the same conclusion you have done regarding 'immediately before going abroad, ordinarily being an employed or self-employed earner in the UK'. You mention a variety of different statuses during the four years prior to departure (training, jobseeking, employment); for how long were you continuously employed before departure, and was this full time (or at an earnings level to trigger mandatory NI contributions)? What does your NI record look like for those years before departure? HMRC's rulings on these type of things can be quite opaque, but concisely presenting your case as part of your (concise yet comprehensive!) covering letter might help the gatekeeper reach the same conclusion you did (eg "for 18 months prior to leaving, I was in full time employment except for a 2 week period before departure when I prepared for my international move, thus I feel I satisfy the Class 2 criterion of 'immediately before going abroad, you were ordinarily an employed or self-employed earner in the UK'"). The SAR might be useful yet as there might be bits of it you could reference or quote.

1. On my cover letter to CF83, in detailing my employment in Japan, is DD/MM/YY format required for job start/end times, or is MM/YY adequate?

Class 2 NI contributions are calculated on a weekly basis (with Sundays as the reference point; see https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manual ... l/nim20200). My personal interpretation is therefore that HMRC want exact dates, and that any gaps between employment could result in periods of ineligibility for Class 2 contributions, so Class 3 contributions would apply for those periods. A search through the (many!) posts on this topic in this forum suggest that some people have had success with non-exact dates supplied... though many people have had many problems in general.... My personal opinion would be to supply the exact information if you have it, (a) to prevent reasons why your application is held up / rejected, and (b) to allow correct calculation of the periods of Class 2 eligibility.

2. Do jobs need to be labled full time or part-time? And if so, how are the Japanese semi-full time jobs denoted?

The relevant legislation refers to 'gainfully employed' (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/200 ... n/147/made). I don't know if there is further definition of this elsewhere, but there is no mention of full-time / part-time.

UK earners have thresholds of pay/profit above which NI contributions are due: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... tributions
I cannot immediately see whether earnings abroad are subject to anything other the 'gainfully employed' criteria, but if your earnings are above the relevant thresholds in the link (ie the rules that UK earners would need to abide by), then it's safe as houses.

3. Not quite CF83, but I spent a LOT of time in tertiary education in the UK - does Uni make any contribution to NICs? How about secondary education?

People from a certain age bracket (I think those born between 1957 and 1992, though check the below link and/or your own NI records and verify yourself) will have received 'starting credits' for the tax years in which they turned 16, 17 and 18. The NI Manual states that they were 'to protect the NI records of students who stayed in full time education': https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manual ... l/nim41210

I’m gunning for 16 years of back payment

Time is of the essence then! Good luck with it all, and don't hesitate if there are further Qs. Take good copies of anything you send, and do feed back anything from the experience that could be useful to others on the forum.

[adamu]

Take good copies of anything you send

And send it via recorded delivery!

P.S. Should mention that kuma is mostly repeating the information he has dutifully gathered on the UK wiki article.

[Mr Tardy]

Take good copies of anything you send

And send it via recorded delivery!

P.S. Should mention that kuma is mostly repeating the information he has dutifully gathered on the UK wiki article.

Thanks for the advice!

And thanks to kuma for the UK wiki article information! It’s what’s got me to this stage without pulling out my hair.

[Mr Tardy]

I’m gunning for 16 years of back payment, so Class 2 payments are critical. As for eligibility criteria, I THINK I may qualify for Class 2. Referencing the 3 main criteria from the Retire Japan wiki:

1. I’m employed outside the UK, and this has been continuous, save for a few days switching between jobs.

2A. I lived in the UK from birth before the period for which NICs are to be paid

As for 2B (or before going abroad, you paid a set amount in NICs for 3 years or more), I’m not sure. I was in several ‘approved training’ courses and on jobseker’s as well as in employment over the 4 years before leaving. I guess this doesn’t matter because of my 2A status.

3. Immediately before going abroad, I was ordinarily an employed earner in the UK.

Sounds like definite yeses here for 1&2 and a provisional yes for 3... provided HMRC reach the same conclusion you have done regarding 'immediately before going abroad, ordinarily being an employed or self-employed earner in the UK'. You mention a variety of different statuses during the four years prior to departure (training, jobseeking, employment); for how long were you continuously employed before departure, and was this full time (or at an earnings level to trigger mandatory NI contributions)? What does your NI record look like for those years before departure? HMRC's rulings on these type of things can be quite opaque, but concisely presenting your case as part of your (concise yet comprehensive!) covering letter might help the gatekeeper reach the same conclusion you did (eg "for 18 months prior to leaving, I was in full time employment except for a 2 week period before departure when I prepared for my international move, thus I feel I satisfy the Class 2 criterion of 'immediately before going abroad, you were ordinarily an employed or self-employed earner in the UK'"). The SAR might be useful yet as there might be bits of it you could reference or quote.

The years before my departure are as follows:
1999/2000 Jobseekers: 23 NI credits
Approved Training: 29 NI credits
2000/2001 Approved Training (Contd): 1 NI credit
Job 1: £114 NI paid. Company collapsed Total time in Job 1, 6 weeks exactly.
Jobseekers: 1 NI credit (1 month)
Job 2: £1,043.20 NI paid
2001/2002 Job 2: £1220 NI paid
2002/2003 Job 2: £313.40 NI paid. Departmental restructuring, lost job. Total time in Job 2, 100 weeks and 5 days.
Jobseekers: 26 NI credits (29 weeks, 4 days)
Job 3: £321.97 NI paid
2003/2004 Job 3: £708.90 NI paid. Due to uncertainty over my job position, and acceptance on the JET Programme, left job. Total time in Job 3, 29 weeks
and 1 day

I finished Job 3 on a Tuesday, was enroute to my JET departure point on that Friday, and was officially in my JET employment on that Sunday.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Job info is just from CVs - all the paperwork is back in the UK.

I do however have my JET job certificate, so I guess with what’s in the HMRC system and the job certificate it should be OK.

1. On my cover letter to CF83, in detailing my employment in Japan, is DD/MM/YY format required for job start/end times, or is MM/YY adequate?

Class 2 NI contributions are calculated on a weekly basis (with Sundays as the reference point; see https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manual ... l/nim20200). My personal interpretation is therefore that HMRC want exact dates, and that any gaps between employment could result in periods of ineligibility for Class 2 contributions, so Class 3 contributions would apply for those periods. A search through the (many!) posts on this topic in this forum suggest that some people have had success with non-exact dates supplied... though many people have had many problems in general.... My personal opinion would be to supply the exact information if you have it, (a) to prevent reasons why your application is held up / rejected, and (b) to allow correct calculation of the periods of Class 2 eligibility.

I’m sure I can supply MOST Japanese jobs on a DD/MM/YY basis. HOWEVER, I did leave a few jobs early to take up better positions, and sometimes didn’t receive my last pay slip.

And that brings me to a terrible newbie question: Does HMRC require job certificates, Gensen Choshus, and pay slips, or would my employment summary on my cover letter suffice?

And an aside, on my prior question about putting in my last date of NI contributions, if Sunday is the reference point, my last NI payment would be the Sunday before the Tuesday that was my last day in Job 3?

2. Do jobs need to be labled full time or part-time? And if so, how are the Japanese semi-full time jobs denoted?

The relevant legislation refers to 'gainfully employed' (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/200 ... n/147/made). I don't know if there is further definition of this elsewhere, but there is no mention of full-time / part-time.

UK earners have thresholds of pay/profit above which NI contributions are due: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... tributions
I cannot immediately see whether earnings abroad are subject to anything other the 'gainfully employed' criteria, but if your earnings are above the relevant thresholds in the link (ie the rules that UK earners would need to abide by), then it's safe as houses.

So perhaps Gensen Choshus would be required?

3. Not quite CF83, but I spent a LOT of time in tertiary education in the UK - does Uni make any contribution to NICs? How about secondary education?

People from a certain age bracket (I think those born between 1957 and 1992, though check the below link and/or your own NI records and verify yourself) will have received 'starting credits' for the tax years in which they turned 16, 17 and 18. The NI Manual states that they were 'to protect the NI records of students who stayed in full time education': https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manual ... l/nim41210

I’ll have to check that out!

I’m gunning for 16 years of back payment

Time is of the essence then! Good luck with it all, and don't hesitate if there are further Qs. Take good copies of anything you send, and do feed back anything from the experience that could be useful to others on the forum.

Thanks! And I will certainly feed back any useful experience.

And, apologies, I’ll finish on a question. CF83 asks about marriage. Is documentation expected?

[kuma]

The years before my departure are as follows:
1999/2000 Jobseekers: 23 NI credits
Approved Training: 29 NI credits
2000/2001 Approved Training (Contd): 1 NI credit
Job 1: £114 NI paid. Company collapsed Total time in Job 1, 6 weeks exactly.
Jobseekers: 1 NI credit (1 month)
Job 2: £1,043.20 NI paid
2001/2002 Job 2: £1220 NI paid
2002/2003 Job 2: £313.40 NI paid. Departmental restructuring, lost job. Total time in Job 2, 100 weeks and 5 days.
Jobseekers: 26 NI credits (29 weeks, 4 days)
Job 3: £321.97 NI paid
2003/2004 Job 3: £708.90 NI paid. Due to uncertainty over my job position, and acceptance on the JET Programme, left job. Total time in Job 3, 29 weeks
and 1 day

I finished Job 3 on a Tuesday, was enroute to my JET departure point on that Friday, and was officially in my JET employment on that Sunday.

That all sounds good for Class 2 in my estimation.

Maybe distill the above into the below (or similar) for your covering letter:

For the 3 years prior to departing the UK, I was an employed earner over 80% of the time. The only gap in employment came when I lost a job due to departmental restructuring, and during the jobseeking period I fulfilled the conditions for Jobseeker’s Allowance, so was clearly looking for work. I worked in the UK until days before my departure to Japan. From this record, I consider it incontestable that I was ordinarily an employed earner immediately before leaving the UK, and thus eligible for Class 2 contributions. 

[>80% figure derives from 129 weeks in work out of 158 weeks (+ change) since starting Job 2; and 158 weeks is almost exactly 3yrs]

As well as being neat and favourable, this 3yr summary also ties in with a passage from NI38 which hints at 3yrs prior to departure potentially being relevant (3yr mention in my italics; not italicised in NI38):

If you want to apply to pay voluntary Class 2 National Insurance contributions while you’re abroad, complete the application form CF83 and on a separate sheet of paper include details of:

* your employments
* self-employments
* periods of registered unemployment during the past 3 years and tell us the date you:
* gave up work
* will give up work before going abroad

Tell us when you intend to start, or have started work abroad and, if possible, supply documentary evidence to support your employment position abroad

.

The final sentence of which brings us on to...

And that brings me to a terrible newbie question: Does HMRC require job certificates, Gensen Choshus, and pay slips, or would my employment summary on my cover letter suffice?

That's a good question, and I'd be interested in answers from been-there-done-that folk. From threads on this forum and from reading in to HMRC's 'if possible' wording, I think your own summary on a covering letter will suffice. Anyone else? (My own experience was of being self employed from the point of arrival in Japan to the point of my application which circumvented having a huge task of piecing together an employment history, but I did list all part time employments I'd had in Japan for completeness.)

And an aside, on my prior question about putting in my last date of NI contributions, if Sunday is the reference point, my last NI payment would be the Sunday before the Tuesday that was my last day in Job 3?

Sounds logical.

kuma wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:40 pm
Mr Tardy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:21 pm
2. Do jobs need to be labled full time or part-time? And if so, how are the Japanese semi-full time jobs denoted?
The relevant legislation refers to 'gainfully employed' (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/200 ... n/147/made). I don't know if there is further definition of this elsewhere, but there is no mention of full-time / part-time.

UK earners have thresholds of pay/profit above which NI contributions are due: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... tributions
I cannot immediately see whether earnings abroad are subject to anything other the 'gainfully employed' criteria, but if your earnings are above the relevant thresholds in the link (ie the rules that UK earners would need to abide by), then it's safe as houses.
So perhaps Gensen Choshus would be required?

Sorry, I've muddied the waters. Perhaps no documentation needed (as in earlier answer, and with the caveat that it would be good to hear others' opinions too).

CF83 asks about marriage. Is documentation expected?

No.

[Mr Tardy]

Thanks for the comprehensive posts kuma. I appreciate them greatly.

And that brings me to a terrible newbie question: Does HMRC require job certificates, Gensen Choshus, and pay slips, or would my employment summary on my cover letter suffice?

That's a good question, and I'd be interested in answers from been-there-done-that folk. From threads on this forum and from reading in to HMRC's 'if possible' wording, I think your own summary on a covering letter will suffice. Anyone else? (My own experience was of being self employed from the point of arrival in Japan to the point of my application which circumvented having a huge task of piecing together an employment history, but I did list all part time employments I'd had in Japan for completeness.)

I’m not sure we’ve covered this point: do I need to just list my jobs and side jobs in Japan, or do that AND list the earnings too (possibly without documentation)?

Cheers!

[Beaglehound]

Thanks for the comprehensive posts kuma. I appreciate them greatly.

And that brings me to a terrible newbie question: Does HMRC require job certificates, Gensen Choshus, and pay slips, or would my employment summary on my cover letter suffice?

That's a good question, and I'd be interested in answers from been-there-done-that folk. From threads on this forum and from reading in to HMRC's 'if possible' wording, I think your own summary on a covering letter will suffice. Anyone else? (My own experience was of being self employed from the point of arrival in Japan to the point of my application which circumvented having a huge task of piecing together an employment history, but I did list all part time employments I'd had in Japan for completeness.)

I’m not sure we’ve covered this point: do I need to just list my jobs and side jobs in Japan, or do that AND list the earnings too (possibly without documentation)?

Cheers!

I was self employed as a teacher/copywriter, so just said how many private students I had and got the couple of companies I was doing stuff for to sign a note (which I had written) confirming I did work for them. That was enough to satisfy them for class 2 in my case, but I guess the more documentation you can provide (without it being seriously onerous) the better.