When to take your Japanese pension?

When do you plan to take your pension (nenkin)?

Early 60-64 (and get less)
3
13%
Standard 65
14
61%
Late 66-75 (get more)
6
26%
 
Total votes: 23

User avatar
Roger Van Zant
Veteran
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:33 am
Location: Kyushu

Re: When to take your Japanese pension?

Post by Roger Van Zant »

captainspoke wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:35 am
...
I keep digging around, and I think there is an article in the telegraph, that says something similar,but it is behind a payment wall

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pen ... 20the%20UK.
On a mac (safari) when it loads go immediately to Reader (shift+command+R)

Here's the text part, not going to bother adding the graphics to this:




Can I unfreeze my state pension when I visit the UK from a country where payments don't rise every year?
Around 500,000 elderly expats live in countries where their state pension is frozen at whatever amount it was set at when they moved abroad.

Some people who retired overseas when the full basic rate was £67.50 a week in 2000 still get that, rather than the £141.85 a week now received by others who retired that year.

But expats who come back to the UK, whether for a short visit or for good, get their state pension uprated back to the full amount again if they apply to the Department for Work and Pensions.

Frozen state pension: How do you unfreeze payments on visits to the UK?
Frozen state pension: How do you unfreeze payments on visits to the UK?
On a short stay, it will only be hiked for the duration of a trip, but the gulf between the frozen and the standard amounts can be so huge that it is worth it even then.

We recently covered the case of a 100-year-old woman who served as a nurse in World War II, and receives a £46-a-week state pension which hasn't increased since she went to live near her children in Australia in the early 1990s.

Very elderly people might not often travel to the UK, or the other 'unfrozen' countries where you can also get your payments increased temporarily, due to frailty or ill health.

However, if you do the process of getting your payments increased is explained below.

Whether an expat's pension is frozen or not depends entirely on where you move to, because the Government has struck individual deals with some countries but left around 150 others out in the cold.

This has created an historical anomaly, which originated some 70 years ago, where people retiring to Canada, Australia, India, Africa and many parts of the Caribbean lose out on state pension increases, while those living in EU countries, the US, Jamaica, Israel and the Philippines get their full whack.

MPs and campaigners have criticised the Government over the policy, which they have variously called illogical, unfair and morally wrong.

In its most recent statement on this, the Government said: 'We understand that people move abroad for many reasons and that this can impact on their finances. There is information on Gov.uk about what the effect of going abroad will be on entitlement to the UK state pension.

'The Government's policy on the uprating of the UK state pension for recipients living overseas is a longstanding one of more than 70 years and we continue to uprate state pensions overseas where there is a legal requirement to do so.'

We explain more here, and see below for the full list of frozen countries.

John Duffy is chair of the International Consortium of British Pensioners which runs the End Frozen Pensions campaign. He says:

Quite astonishingly, a 'frozen' state pensioner will find their UK state pension 'thawed' if they return to the UK, even if only for a short period.

Indeed, the pension is unfrozen during any visit to a list of 'unfrozen' countries, not just the UK.

This means that somebody could receive – for example - £46 in one week living in a 'frozen' country, visit the UK, where their weekly pension will be tripled, only for this to revert to the frozen rate when back in their country of residence.

This arbitrary system highlights the sheer inequity of frozen pensions: if you have paid in the same dues and contributions, why should it matter where you happen to be?

Is there a minimum stay in the UK required?

There is no minimum stay in the UK required to receive the full uprated state pension.

A pensioner only has to inform the DWP of their arrival and departure dates.

What are the best contact details to sort this out with the DWP?

There is very little information on how to arrange this on the DWP website – this is rather typical of all communications provided to support pensioners overseas and mirrors the distinct lack of communication informing a pensioner that their state pension might be frozen should they move abroad.

A pensioner wishing to arrange a return to the UK should inform the International Pension Centre by phoning the call line at +44 191 218 7777. (See the box below.)

What proof will be required of being in the UK and the length of time spent there?

A 'frozen' pensioner visiting the UK will need to provide their full name and home telephone number, the date they are arriving and leaving the UK, their nationality, and an address and telephone number of where they will be staying during their visit.

They will then be asked to provide their UK National Insurance number and travel details.

This can be arranged prior to arrival in the UK but no earlier than 28 days beforehand.

What else should you know?

If a 'frozen' pensioner visits the UK or one or more of the countries where the rate of pension is increased each year in line with the practice in the UK (the 'uprated countries'), they could also have their pension increased during their time there.

This concession excludes the US and Bermuda.

The uprated countries where the pension will be increased are: Austria, Barbados, Belgium, Bosnia Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Eire (Republic of Ireland), Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Guernsey, Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Jersey, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Mauritius, Montenegro, The Netherlands, North Macedonia, Norway, The Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey and, of course, the United Kingdom.

The period of increase also includes any time spent on a British registered ship.
So if you register a ship in the UK, sail it to Japan, park it in a marina, and register it as your primary residence, you'd get annual pension increases? Hmmm, a cunning plan.... :D
Investments:
Company DB scheme ✓
iDeCo (Monex) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
新NISA (SBI) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
Japanese pension (kosei nenkin) ✓
UK pension (Class 2 payer) ✓
User avatar
Roger Van Zant
Veteran
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:33 am
Location: Kyushu

Re: When to take your Japanese pension?

Post by Roger Van Zant »

RetireJapan wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:20 pm
Wales4rugbyWC23 wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:06 pm Interesting that you can unfreeze your state pension by going to a country that has an agreement with the UK for the uprate. I think I might be going for an annual summer holiday to the Philippines in my retirement.
I'm guessing that would be deemed a short, temporary stay :lol:
That's okay though. Even if your stay is just a couple of weeks, you still get the increase.
Investments:
Company DB scheme ✓
iDeCo (Monex) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
新NISA (SBI) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
Japanese pension (kosei nenkin) ✓
UK pension (Class 2 payer) ✓
User avatar
Roger Van Zant
Veteran
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:33 am
Location: Kyushu

Re: When to take your Japanese pension?

Post by Roger Van Zant »

RetireJapan wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 11:57 am
Bubblegun wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:30 am
RetireJapan wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:28 am

I've never heard that. Do you have a source?
Yes, I read it here. So from my interpretationi it will be unfrozen while you are in the UK, or treated countries, but if you repatriate back to a NON treaty country I.E Japan it was frozen. On your return it will revert back to the original amount.
On a short stay, IT WILL ONLY BE HIKED FOR THE DURATTION OF A TRIP, but the gulf between the frozen and the standard amounts can be so huge that it is worth it even then.

Very elderly people might not often travel to the UK, or the other 'unfrozen' countries where you can also get your payments increased temporarily

I keep digging around, and I think there is an article in the telegraph, that says something similar,but it is behind a payment wall

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pen ... 20the%20UK.
That's referring to a temporary stay I believe. If you moved permanently to the UK or a similar country it would unfreeze your pension. If you then moved to a non-treaty country it would freeze again, but at the current (reset) level.

Under current rules. Which may change in the future anyway.
It wouldn't freeze again at the current reset level. It would freeze again at the amount you got when you first started drawing your pension.
Investments:
Company DB scheme ✓
iDeCo (Monex) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
新NISA (SBI) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
Japanese pension (kosei nenkin) ✓
UK pension (Class 2 payer) ✓
User avatar
Roger Van Zant
Veteran
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:33 am
Location: Kyushu

Re: When to take your Japanese pension?

Post by Roger Van Zant »

Incidentally, when you draw your UK state pension here in Japan, is it taxed both in the UK and again in Japan?
If both, that must reduce the amount you get in-hand quite significantly....
Investments:
Company DB scheme ✓
iDeCo (Monex) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
新NISA (SBI) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
Japanese pension (kosei nenkin) ✓
UK pension (Class 2 payer) ✓
User avatar
RetireJapan
Site Admin
Posts: 4718
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:57 am
Location: Sendai
Contact:

Re: When to take your Japanese pension?

Post by RetireJapan »

Roger Van Zant wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:40 am It wouldn't freeze again at the current reset level. It would freeze again at the amount you got when you first started drawing your pension.
What makes you say that? Do you have a source?
English teacher and writer. RetireJapan founder. Avid reader.

eMaxis Slim Shady 8-)
User avatar
RetireJapan
Site Admin
Posts: 4718
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:57 am
Location: Sendai
Contact:

Re: When to take your Japanese pension?

Post by RetireJapan »

Roger Van Zant wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:52 am Incidentally, when you draw your UK state pension here in Japan, is it taxed both in the UK and again in Japan?
If both, that must reduce the amount you get in-hand quite significantly....
It seems not: https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you ... ion%20once.

"Article 17: Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 18 of this Convention, pensions and other similar
remuneration beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that
Contracting State."

So only taxable in Japan.
English teacher and writer. RetireJapan founder. Avid reader.

eMaxis Slim Shady 8-)
Deep Blue
Veteran
Posts: 672
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:43 am

Re: When to take your Japanese pension?

Post by Deep Blue »

RetireJapan wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:18 am
Roger Van Zant wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:40 am It wouldn't freeze again at the current reset level. It would freeze again at the amount you got when you first started drawing your pension.
What makes you say that? Do you have a source?
I doubt this kind of very edge case is set out explicitly anywhere. But I suspect if you have a frozen pension, moved full time to the UK, had your pension unfrozen and up-rated to the current UK level AND THEN decided to move to a non-treaty country then it would be frozen at the current rate you are earning. Same as any other pensioner moving to a non-treaty country.

I doubt any offical source will state this though.
User avatar
Roger Van Zant
Veteran
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:33 am
Location: Kyushu

Re: When to take your Japanese pension?

Post by Roger Van Zant »

RetireJapan wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:18 am
Roger Van Zant wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:40 am It wouldn't freeze again at the current reset level. It would freeze again at the amount you got when you first started drawing your pension.
What makes you say that? Do you have a source?
Just what was written above by the other poster.
(Page 3, by Bubblegun, on 2024/10/10 at 11:46am)
Last edited by Roger Van Zant on Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Investments:
Company DB scheme ✓
iDeCo (Monex) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
新NISA (SBI) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
Japanese pension (kosei nenkin) ✓
UK pension (Class 2 payer) ✓
User avatar
Roger Van Zant
Veteran
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:33 am
Location: Kyushu

Re: When to take your Japanese pension?

Post by Roger Van Zant »

RetireJapan wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:22 am
Roger Van Zant wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:52 am Incidentally, when you draw your UK state pension here in Japan, is it taxed both in the UK and again in Japan?
If both, that must reduce the amount you get in-hand quite significantly....
It seems not: https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you ... ion%20once.

"Article 17: Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 18 of this Convention, pensions and other similar
remuneration beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that
Contracting State."

So only taxable in Japan.
Okay, that's some good news.
Investments:
Company DB scheme ✓
iDeCo (Monex) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
新NISA (SBI) eMaxis Slim All Country ✓
Japanese pension (kosei nenkin) ✓
UK pension (Class 2 payer) ✓
Bubblegun
Veteran
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 2:45 am

Re: When to take your Japanese pension?

Post by Bubblegun »

Roger Van Zant wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:27 am
Bubblegun wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2024 1:28 pm
Roger Van Zant wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2024 1:09 am

I'll try to hold off taking my Japanese pension as long as possible....
My company will kick me out the door at 62. I do have the option to continue working for them until 65, but probably on half the salary for the same workload; this is the Japanese way of thanking their employees for working for them for thirty years.
I think I can draw my UK pension from 67?
I am saving now using iDeCo and NISA so that I have funds to cover me from 62 to 67.
Luckily for me, I don't have a family to provide for, so this reduces stress levels quite a bit.
I know many foreigners here who avoided paying into the Japanese pension system and who also do not bother paying into their own countries' pension systems; gross irresponsibility, simple as that.
Gotta love japanese age discrimination.I understand holding off.But i wonder why they kick you out at 62? Is it a cost cutting thing? You can claim your pension, cut your work down, still earn, but somehow be cost/tax neutral? I have no idea. I can see it as a way to reduce company costs, and bring in a new young college grad.
Yes,I have to agree it is gross irresponsibility if they stick their head in the sand, but I also think some don't know they can pay their N.I back home. especially when the system here is so complicated and convoluted. Back in the day the internet wasn't that great, and I'm not even sure HMRS even had a website. The ones that do know, and can't be bothered, it does lean towards to irresponsible, but i also understand if they are having problems here with poor job security, poor contracts, and maybe just earning enough, it might not be a priority.
It's 100% a cost-cutting thing.
Oh totally. Then it frees up that position for the younger blue eyed blond.Who is probably also going to be on a lower salary, weaker contract, etc etc.
Well, what ever happens good luck.
I'm hopging that when our kids go to college, we will be able to ease up a bit, as they'll be able to take out a student loan, and work a bit.
There has to be a time we need time for ourselves. Sadly one of the problems of a demographic time bomb. In our case, not demographicly, but now "TIME".
Baldrick. Trying to save the world.
Post Reply