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Re: Children's Accounts - Deposits and Gift Tax

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:43 am
by Tsumitate Wrestler
Deep Blue wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:35 am
Tsumitate Wrestler wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:04 am
The translation is irreverent sadly, it's all about the official Law as written in Japanese.
I confirmed with my wife the translation is accurate. The official guidance from the NTA on their website states minor children do not need to consent to gifts. I’m not sure what else you are looking for?
The nuisance is spelled out in the link, but it surrounds the test of the validity of a gift. The issue is more pronounced when the gift comes from a non-parent, directly or indirectly.

No, it is not intuitive.
RetireJapan wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:30 am
Tsumitate Wrestler wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:23 am Can we all put our rings together and summon Captain Tax to break down both sides here and give a ruling?
My impression is there is no ruling because at the end of the day it is going to depend on the NTA doing an inheritance tax audit and ruling against you.

If both of those fail to happen there is no issue. There seem to be steps you can take to reduce the chance of them happening, and you get to sue the NTA if you disagree with their ruling, but it is not a black and white issue.

Personally I am not particularly worried about this. We have put money into our grandkids' J-NISA accounts, but they will get control of them when they are 18 and do whatever they want with the money, hopefully before my wife and I die :lol:

After that we are planning to either give money to family (under 1.1m a year) or pay their living expenses for them. We will not have control of bank accounts in their names that we put money into, which seems to be most of the issue discussed on Reddit.
Perhaps a good workaround outside of a contract drawn up and signed in crayon by my infant child..... (Sigh) Would be setting aside a buffer and trying to convince a then adult/child not to touch the money until X- date after Gigi/Baba passes. Just in case. Fun conversation.

Re: Children's Accounts - Deposits and Gift Tax

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:09 am
by RetireJapan
Tsumitate Wrestler wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:43 am Would be setting aside a buffer and trying to convince a then adult/child not to touch the money until X- date after Gigi/Baba passes.
Wouldn't that make it worse? The person receiving the gift not having control of it seems to be a red flag...

Re: Children's Accounts - Deposits and Gift Tax

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:50 am
by Tsumitate Wrestler
RetireJapan wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:09 am
Tsumitate Wrestler wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:43 am Would be setting aside a buffer and trying to convince a then adult/child not to touch the money until X- date after Gigi/Baba passes.
Wouldn't that make it worse? The person receiving the gift not having control of it seems to be a red flag...
Within the same account. Just earmarked not to be spent until X time.

A situation where a young adult receives a tax bill after spending down all the funds could be pretty disastrous, no?

Re: Children's Accounts - Deposits and Gift Tax

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:52 am
by sutebayashi
Tsumitate Wrestler wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:40 pm Chat-GPT is a very dangerous resource to use for tax questions, especially bilingual ones. Remember, it's often using data from forums like this one (and Reddit) as an uncited source.
Yes. I asked it the question first in Japanese, before telling it to translate it to English.
So I hope that the answer is run of the mill, even if wrong.
If it is wrong then it’s a serious issue, since the gift tax rules would appear to be widely misunderstood.

And if it is wrong it makes Japan’s already world beating in horrid inheritance and gift tax rules even worse…

Re: Children's Accounts - Deposits and Gift Tax

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:59 am
by Deep Blue
Tsumitate Wrestler wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:50 am
RetireJapan wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:09 am
Tsumitate Wrestler wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:43 am Would be setting aside a buffer and trying to convince a then adult/child not to touch the money until X- date after Gigi/Baba passes.
Wouldn't that make it worse? The person receiving the gift not having control of it seems to be a red flag...
Within the same account. Just earmarked not to be spent until X time.

A situation where a young adult receives a tax bill after spending down all the funds could be pretty disastrous, no?
Life’s too short to worry about extreme edge case hypotheticals that contradict both the widely understood interpretation of the law, plus that would seem to violate a central tenant of when this would be “deemed assets” which would require the decedent to have maintained control over the accounts. If the child has spent the money, it’s pretty clear the decedent wasn’t in control of it.

Re: Children's Accounts - Deposits and Gift Tax

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:30 am
by Tsumitate Wrestler
Deep Blue wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:59 am
Tsumitate Wrestler wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:50 am
RetireJapan wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:09 am

Wouldn't that make it worse? The person receiving the gift not having control of it seems to be a red flag...
Within the same account. Just earmarked not to be spent until X time.

A situation where a young adult receives a tax bill after spending down all the funds could be pretty disastrous, no?
Life’s too short to worry about extreme edge case hypotheticals that contradict both the widely understood interpretation of the law....
I thought so at first too, but the counter-argument is simply that that interpretation is wrong, and not held by actual tax experts.

The following information was presented on reddit, and my confidence was eroded.

1. https://souzoku.asahi.com/article/13089869
2. https://www.oag-tax.co.jp/asset-campus- ... posit-3712
3. https://tomorrowstax.com/knowledge/202103176495/
4. https://chester-tax.com/encyclopedia/8754.html

Re: Children's Accounts - Deposits and Gift Tax

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:53 am
by RetireJapan
All four of those are explicitly about 'meigi yokin', accounts held by the decedent in someone else's name.

Re: Children's Accounts - Deposits and Gift Tax

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:07 pm
by Tsumitate Wrestler
RetireJapan wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:53 am
All four of those are explicitly about 'meigi yokin', accounts held by the decedent in someone else's name.
Right, that is the issue though. See below.
名義人が預金口座について知らない
名義人が預金口座の存在を知らない場合、この預金は亡くなられた方の「名義預金」とみなされます。例えば、親御さんがお子さんの将来のためにお子さん名義の口座を作ったものの、まだ幼いからあるいは無駄遣いをしてしまう可能性があるから等の理由で口座があることを知らせていない場合、名義預金と判断されます

The nominee does not know about the deposit account.
If the nominee does not know about the existence of the deposit account, this deposit is considered a "nominal deposit" of the deceased. For example, if a parent has set up an account in the child's name for the child's future, but does not inform the child that the account exists because the child is still young, or because the child might waste money, etc., the account is considered a nominal deposit.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

Re: Children's Accounts - Deposits and Gift Tax

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:16 pm
by Tsumitate Wrestler
Also, from Mr. Tax himself u/starkimpossibility. This diatribe. I swear this is not a fever dream I am having...

https://old.reddit.com/r/JapanFinance/c ... context=3
We know that gift tax and inheritance tax are separate.
There is no "Gift Tax Law". Gift tax is a creation of the Inheritance Tax Law, and it only exists to inhibit inheritance tax evasion. Also, gift tax enforcement is almost non-existent outside the scope of inheritance tax enforcement. The two taxes are intertwined and can't be considered separately. The reason we know that a child's lack of awareness of funds (or lack of access to funds) renders a gift ineffective is that the NTA has consistently ruled that such funds are subject to inheritance tax. In practice, the only way to understand what constitutes a gift (and what doesn't) is to look at how inheritance tax works.
Respecting the retroactive rules that look back over X years after inheritance
Those rules are not relevant to this issue. They are just used to determine which gifts are subject to inheritance tax. They are not used to determine whether an asset in the name of someone else constitutes part of the deceased's estate.
Money gifted to a child before said period, is that child money.
Only if the gift was effective. The Civil Code (Article 549 et al) and Inheritance Tax Law determine whether a gift is effective for inheritance/gift tax purposes, and according to that law (as explained on the many pages I linked above) transfers to accounts in children's names are not always effective as gifts. Certain conditions must be met. (Again, refer to the articles for the details of those conditions. But needless to say awareness of the account and ability to access it are the most fundamental.)

The length of time that has passed between depositing the funds into the child's account and the date of death is not especially relevant. If anything, more time having passed without the child accessing/using the funds is evidence towards the conclusion that no gift occurred. Again, see the NTA's materials about how common it is for people to "forget" to include very old accounts in children's names as part of the deceased's estate. It is a widespread form of inheritance tax evasion and something that the NTA is working hard to minimize.
The NTA is not going to create a "legal test" of a child's knowledge of said funds.
When engaged in an audit, the NTA must reach a conclusion as to whether a gift occurred in the past. To do so, they must apply the relevant provisions of the Civil Code and the Inheritance Tax Law. Those provisions require knowledge on the part of the gift recipient (among other things), and the NTA has a long history of holding that deposits made into children's accounts did not constitute a gift when there was insufficient knowledge on the part of the recipient (or for other reasons). Again, see the NTA document linked in my previous comment, as well as the detailed explanations provided by tax accountants.
The current practices are pretty firmly culturally entrenched
If you mean that inheritance tax evasion via transfers to children's accounts (where the child doesn't know about or have full access to the funds) is common, then I agree. It seems to be one of the most common types of tax evasion discovered by inheritance tax audits (second, perhaps, to the old fashioned cash-in-the-wardrobe strategy). It has also been identified by the NTA as a priority in terms of taxpayer education, and if you pick up any textbook about inheritance/gift tax you will undoubtedly find a lengthy discussion of the topic. (Just as you will find plenty of detailed explanations online.) The fact that it is common doesn't make it legal, though.
systems like the form J-Nisa formalized them
Unfortunately, Junior NISA was not accompanied by any changes to the Inheritance Tax Law. As a result, it gave rise to a wide variety of complex inheritance/gift tax scenarios, and many tax accountants ended up advising their clients to avoid Junior NISA. There were also people who were shocked to be told by the NTA that their child would have a gift tax liability when control over the account passed to them (assuming the value of the account exceeded 1.1 million yen). One of the reasons Junior NISA no longer exists is that it never sat comfortably with existing inheritance/gift tax law, and it certainly didn't "formalize" any exceptions, as much as some might wish it did.

Re: Children's Accounts - Deposits and Gift Tax

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:52 pm
by Deep Blue
Tsumitate Wrestler wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:07 pm
RetireJapan wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:53 am
All four of those are explicitly about 'meigi yokin', accounts held by the decedent in someone else's name.
Right, that is the issue though. See below.
名義人が預金口座について知らない
名義人が預金口座の存在を知らない場合、この預金は亡くなられた方の「名義預金」とみなされます。例えば、親御さんがお子さんの将来のためにお子さん名義の口座を作ったものの、まだ幼いからあるいは無駄遣いをしてしまう可能性があるから等の理由で口座があることを知らせていない場合、名義預金と判断されます

The nominee does not know about the deposit account.
If the nominee does not know about the existence of the deposit account, this deposit is considered a "nominal deposit" of the deceased. For example, if a parent has set up an account in the child's name for the child's future, but does not inform the child that the account exists because the child is still young, or because the child might waste money, etc., the account is considered a nominal deposit.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
But you were worried about the children spending the money and getting an IHT bill. But as I pointed out, the act of them spending the money would prove the decedent didn’t have control over it.