RetireJapan

Posted: **Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:44 am**

Bubblegun wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:24 am
RetireJapan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:19 am
Bubblegun wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:12 am This “sending of documents to the Japanese person” and not the “foreigner” in my opinion may come from not just bias but also from that persons experience. Probably
A) assuming the foreigner can’t understand any Japanese.
B) can’t access help without a wife/ husband
C) The person who dealt with issues previously dealt with the Japanese person previously.
It really can be way to jump to calling everything racism but in truth, how many are that fluent in dealing with the paperwork here. ( of course there are) but the vast majority can’t. So basically if you can’t read, write, or speak Japanese, your pretty much disabled. I’ve met people who’ve live in the UK for years who couldn’t even read the alphabet and everything had to be done by a British person. So it’s certainly not imho racist.
Personally I expect banks and other institutions to follow their standard rules and procedures without individual employees using their 'experience' to change the rules

I'm not saying it doesn't happen from time to time, but when it does it means I have to go and have a pointed chat with the manager, and that is just tedious for everyone concerned...
I have to completely agree with you, I expect institutions to follow their guidelines. And I suppose without knowing their banking situation or if he gave her control in dealing with all financial matters we don’t know their specific situation. Your spot on when your Japanese is at a good level. However guidelines are just that, guidelines. Although I’m actually surprised she/he didn’t go to the bank before she passed away.

If There is anyothats comes out of this is noted and memos can easily be denied and better to make a will.
But wow, some interesting stuff.

https://legacytomodachi.com/2018/09/26/ ... -in-japan/
Looks like the in-laws are entitled to stuff if you don’t have a will.

As I understand it, the in-laws are often entitled to stuff even if you do make a will. The statutory share for parents-in-law in the event of a spouse passing without kids seems to be set in stone. Open to correction on this, but that is my understanding.

Posted: **Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:57 am**

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:44 am
Bubblegun wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:24 am
RetireJapan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:19 am

Personally I expect banks and other institutions to follow their standard rules and procedures without individual employees using their 'experience' to change the rules

I'm not saying it doesn't happen from time to time, but when it does it means I have to go and have a pointed chat with the manager, and that is just tedious for everyone concerned...
I have to completely agree with you, I expect institutions to follow their guidelines. And I suppose without knowing their banking situation or if he gave her control in dealing with all financial matters we don’t know their specific situation. Your spot on when your Japanese is at a good level. However guidelines are just that, guidelines. Although I’m actually surprised she/he didn’t go to the bank before she passed away.

If There is anything that comes out of this, is that notes and memos can easily be denied and better to make a will.
But wow, some interesting stuff.

https://legacytomodachi.com/2018/09/26/ ... -in-japan/
Looks like the in-laws are entitled to stuff if you don’t have a will.
As I understand it, the in-laws are often entitled to stuff even if you do make a will. The statutory share for parents-in-law in the event of a spouse passing without kids seems to be set in stone. Open to correction on this, but that is my understanding.

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:22 am**

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:44 am As I understand it, the in-laws are often entitled to stuff even if you do make a will.

Correct, as long as it is clear that is the decedent's parents who are being referred to. It's important to keep these blood relationships in mind when discussing inheritance to avoid possible confusion because the Civil Code specifies that, except for the spouse, a blood relationship must exist for someone to qualify as a statutory heir. Parents-in-law have no legal claim on a child-in-law's estate except when when an heir follows a decedent in death before the decedent's inheritance procedures have been completed (a confusing situation in itself).

The term used to refer to a minimum portion of a decedent's estate legally guaranteed to go to a statutory heir regardless of the existence of a will is iryūbun (遺留分). This guarantee only applies to a spouse or one's own parents or children (siblings etc. need not apply; grandparents and grandchildren apparently also qualify depending on circumstances). Basically, half of the estate gets reserved for these statutory heirs (a third of the estate if the only survivors are the parents).

However, since wills that violate this guaranteed right to a portion of the estate are still considered legally valid (due to a 2019 change in the law), it's up to the offended parties to claim that their inheritance rights were violated and recover their share of the estate. Hardly a pleasant prospect.

Edit: Note that the decedent's parents don't necessarily qualify for an iryūbun if children are also involved. I'll see if I can make a short list later after checking around a little.

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:49 am**

So moral of the story is: That, unless you want to lose a large chunk of your investment, don’t buy a house , make any large purchases or start a business if your in-laws are alive, or if you have kids.

Another out of date and overly convoluted Japanese law that ultimately stifles economic growth and discourages starting a family.

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:59 am**

So are we saying the guy who said he was done over, wasn't really done over? But the in laws just claimed what they were legaly entitled to because she didn't write a will?

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:14 am**

I think the moral of the story is to understand how the law works and be prepared for future events.

My wife and I had a talk about this yesterday and we both understand what will happen (if she dies, I will get 50% and her kids will split the other 50% of her assets: if I die she will get everything because I don't have any other close relatives).

I do need to update my 'death file' -a simple list of assets, account numbers, institutions, etc. She doesn't because I administer all her accounts anyway

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:31 am**

Gulliver wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:49 am So moral of the story is: That, unless you want to lose a large chunk of your investment, don’t buy a house , make any large purchases or start a business if your in-laws are alive, or if you have kids.

Another out of date and overly convoluted Japanese law that ultimately stifles economic growth and discourages starting a family.

Similar laws in other countries. You can't override legal rights but if you do have a will, those entitled to inheritance could choose not to contest it. It would seem in this case the house was in the wife's name and hence the family had a claim, but I do sympathize with the guy as he suggests this is not what his wife wanted. I would have hoped the wife's wishes were respected. My grandmother remarried after my grandfather died. She basically provided for her second husband all their married life, but wanted to leave most of her estate to her two children. The husband contested because spouses have legal rights and he got a great deal of the estate. We would have preferred he respected my grandmother's wishes, but there was nothing we could do. I suppose here in Japan the moral is know the law and if you don't want your in-laws to have a claim on your estate, have stuff in your name.

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:37 am**

Gulliver wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:49 am So moral of the story is: That, unless you want to lose a large chunk of your investment, don’t buy a house , make any large purchases or start a business if your in-laws are alive, or if you have kids.

Another out of date and overly convoluted Japanese law that ultimately stifles economic growth and discourages starting a family.

I wonder how would a similar scenario be different if the couple were both foreigners.

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:46 am**

gnakarmi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:37 am I wonder how would a similar scenario be different if the couple were both foreigners.

For non-Japanese residents, their inheritances are handled according to 'home country' rules.

In the case of the UK, the law says that non-resident citizens will be handled by the laws of the country of residence

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:12 am**

It’s not easy to wrap one’s head around the various complications, but according to the story referred to in the first post in this thread, no children were involved and the spouse’s parents survived her. The statutory amount (i.e., the decedent died intestate) to which the spouse’s parents is entitled is therefore one-third of the estate (with the rest supposedly going to the surviving spouse). Even if the spouse had left a will, iryūbun considerations still guarantee the parents one-sixth of the inheritance, should they choose to claim it (in the same situation, the spouse would have an iryūbun of one-third of the estate). As far as I’ve been able to determine, iryūbun considerations for parents do not come into play when statutory heirs include the decedent’s children.

Below are summarized seven possible iryūbun configurations described on a number of Japanese sites. I’ve referred to the following:

https://izumi-souzoku.jp/column/iryubun/iryubun
https://www.sgho.jp/blog/%E7%9B%B8%E7%B6%9Aqa/130
https://souzoku-satou.com/reserved-portion (the most complete table)
https://advisors-freee.jp/article/categ ... l-20/7918/

First, the overall portion of the estate subject to iryūbun considerations when statutory heirs are involved:

One-third of the estate when the only surviving statutory heirs are chokkei sonzoku (直系尊属, which refers to direct parent-child relationships going back in time, and includes adoptive parents). In-laws and great aunts and great uncles, etc. are not chokkei and do not normally qualify for iryūbun.

One-half of the estate in other cases, which exclude siblings.

Next, iryūbun rights compare to statutory inheritance rights, according to the relationship of the of survivor(s) to the decedent, statutory inheritance proportion, and iryūbun proportion:

1.
Spouse only
Statutory proportion: 100%
iryūbun proportion: 50%

2.
One child
Statutory proportion: 100%
iryūbun proportion: 50%

3.
Two children
Statutory proportion: 50% each
iryūbun proportion: 25% each

4.
Spouse and one child
Statutory proportion: 50% spouse, 50% child
iryūbun proportion: 25% spouse, 25% child

5.
Spouse and two children
Statutory proportion: 50% spouse, 25% each child
iryūbun proportion: 25% spouse, 12.5% each child

6. Spouse and parents
Statutory proportion: 66.7% spouse; 33.3% parents
iryūbun proportion: 33.3% spouse, 16.6% parents (half each)

7.
Parents only
Statutory proportion: 100%
iryūbun proportion: 33.3% (half each)

As RJ suggests, I suppose that the lesson is, first of all, to prepare a will, but also to keep in mind while doing so that there is an iryūbun portionof the estate guaranteed to some statutory heirs. It is also true that inheritance claims can be forfeited or not claimed (the iryūbun must be claimed to be received).

RetireJapan

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