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Re: Permanent Residency and being taxed on US assets/rental income

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:16 am
by TokyoWart
Tkydon wrote:
I went through to confirm the Intricate Detail of Dividend Taxation in Japan.

...
Total = 558,663 ($5,080)

You can then take a Foreign Tax Credit for taxes paid on the Dividend Income in the US.
Thanks, this is similar to your other very detailed reply ;) . What I'm actually asking is how it nets out for an actual case because there are both these calculations of the tax on the 分離課税用 第三表 but then also a subtraction you can apply for having paid foreign taxes on dividends from the 外国税額控除に関する明細書. It's that latter step that seems very different from year-to-year for me so I was hoping captainspoke could share the example of his experience.

Re: Permanent Residency and being taxed on US assets/rental income

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:02 am
by captainspoke
TokyoWart wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:52 am
Sure, there are taxes on it here--I do report everything meticulously.
Just curious because I will be in a similar situation someday, how much tax do you find you're paying in Japan on the $25,000 of US dividends?
The 'normal' ~20%...?

Tho I need to go back and recheck my 2019 return, which divs/gains may have been counted as income. (Local tax and health premiums were quite high.)

Re: Permanent Residency and being taxed on US assets/rental income

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:37 am
by vikingslav
I'm UK rather than US but in a similar position to the original poster. My feeling is of being double taxed in countries in which I do not have the right to vote. Double taxation without representation. Didn't someone go to war for that reason?

Here's my situation. I'm retired on a modest university pension in Japan. I have a house rented out and savings in the UK, all declared to Japanese.

I pay tax on the rented income in UK, so nothing to pay on that in Japan. However the UK assets and rental income in the UK push my Japanese tax up substantially to 350,000 which seems not unreasonable. but here's the killer... I'm being charged a whopping 661,740 for National Insurance and my rate of payment for treatment is bumped up to 30% instead of the 20% normal for over-70s. This seems not only punitive but a form of double taxation even if technically the money is taken under a different name.

The upshot is I'm paying a million yen to Japanese when my income here is only pensions of just over two million. I wonder if that seems right to those who know about such things? Should I be seeing an accountant, and if so could anyone recommend one?

Thanks for any input.

Re: Permanent Residency and being taxed on US assets/rental income

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:12 am
by goodandbadjapan
vikingslav wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:37 am

Here's my situation. I'm retired on a modest university pension in Japan. I have a house rented out and savings in the UK, all declared to Japanese.

I pay tax on the rented income in UK, so nothing to pay on that in Japan. However the UK assets and rental income in the UK push my Japanese tax up substantially to 350,000 which seems not unreasonable.
I'm not sure I understand this correctly (I probably don't!) but you said you pay tax on UK rental income in UK so don't pay here, but then say the rental income and assets push your tax up here. So does that not mean you are in fact paying tax here on it? And why do your UK assets push your tax up here? Unless you are making capital gains or income from those assets.

Re: Permanent Residency and being taxed on US assets/rental income

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:59 am
by Tkydon
How long have you been in Japan. Do you have PR?

UK Property. You can invoke the UK-Japan Tax Treaty to reduce Double Taxation.
Whether or not you have paid UK Taxes in the UK on the Rental Income, if you have been in Japan for more than 5 Years you are liable for Japan Taxes on that income.
In the UK, you have never been able to claim depreciation as an expense, so you should get taxed on the Rental Income minus Expenses to generate that income.
In Japan, until the allowance was removed, it was possible to claim depreciation as an expense on foreign properties, so it would depend on the age of the house and the construction material, whether you could have claimed (and possibly go back and claim) a depreciation loss against that income.

The Japan UK Tax Treaty can be found here
https://www.mof.go.jp/tax_policy/summar ... 0202a2.pdf

Unfortunately, Taxation has no relation to representation for foreign nationals in Japan.
However, as a Permanent Resident For Taxation Purposes (whether PR or not), Japan has call on all of your Global Income and Assets, as if you were a PR or a Japanese Citizen.

Do you mean National Insurance in the UK? Or Japanese Kokumin Kenko Hoken?

Do you have a UK National Pension? Full or partial? Other Private Pensions?

Do you qualify for a Japanese National Pension? Full or partial? Kokumin Nenkin? Kokumin Nenkin Kikin?

Kokumin Kenko Hoken has an absolute maximum annual premium, but should be much lower than that, assessed on previous year's income. The cut-off is not 70, but 75...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ce_(Japan)
Category 1 - The basic premium (for regular NHI members.)
Calculated by multiplying the total residents tax paid by all NHI members in the household by 0.80. This is the income levy. Then multiplying the number of insured household members by 39,000. This is the per capita levy. These two levies added together are the annual premium that must be paid. The maximum possible is 580,000 per year.

Category 2 - The premium for supporting the elderly (for people older than 75.)
Calculated by multiplying the total residents tax paid by all NHI members in the household by 0.23. This is the income levy. Then multiplying the number of insured household members by 12,000. This is the per capita levy. These two levies added together are the annual premium that must be paid. The maximum possible is 190,000 per year.

Category 3 - For nursing care (for people in long-term care)
Calculated by multiplying the total residents tax paid by all category 2 NHI members in the household by 0.11. This is the income levy. Then multiplying the number of category 2 household members by 15,600. This is the per capita levy. These two levies added together are the annual premium that must be paid. The maximum possible is 160,000 per year.



However, as a Permanent Resident For Tax Purposes, you are taxed on Global Income. Not Japan Local Income.

You should see an accountant who can do the cross-taxes, and possibly fairly quickly as you can only go back and amend Japanese Tax Return for the last 3 years.

Re: Permanent Residency and being taxed on US assets/rental income

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:55 pm
by Wales4rugbyWC23
Tkydon wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:10 pm OK, to reiterate what others have said above, and add some additional points.

When you have been resident in Japan for 5 years, whether you have Permanent Residence or not, you are then treated as a Permanent Resident For Tax Purposes. Then you are subject to Japan's Global Taxation, i.e. taxable on al you global assets, income and gains, just the same as US Global Taxation.

You can claim Foreign Tax Credits on both sides for taxes paid in the other jurisdiction under the US-Japan Tax Treaty.

The Tax Office can Audit you and they can go back 5 years and claim any outstanding taxes for the period with interest. Funnily enough it seems like just about the time you became liable for these taxes in Japan on your 5th anniversary.

You can go back and file, re-file or modify your tax filings for the past 3 years. The Kakutei Shinkoku at the Tax Office.
See Here:
https://www.nta.go.jp/english/taxes/ind ... /index.htm
https://www.nta.go.jp/english/taxes/ind ... 020/01.pdf

and Here:

https://www.nta.go.jp/english/taxes/ind ... oku301.htm


So, there is zero downside to applying for PR, and it means you can lose or change your jobs without fear of deportation...

Property. Up until last year, there was a very advantageous system where Japanese Tax would let you take Depreciation loses against Overseas Properties and offset those losses against your Japanese Income Tax. This was very lucrative, and could mean that if you file you may be due a sizable tax rebate on your Japanese Income Tax.

Dividends. As a US Citizen, you would incur US Withholding Tax at 30%. This is more than Japanese Tax on Dividends and so the net would be that you would not have to pay Tax on those Dividends.

Capital Gains. You are subject to Japanese Capital Gains Tax on all overseas Capital Gains, but you can claim Foreign Tax Credits for Taxes paid overseas (in the US) on those capital gains.

https://www.nta.go.jp/english/taxes/ind ... /12007.htm

Somebody mentioned the Exit Tax.
As a Permanent Resident for Tax Purposes you are subject to the Exit Tax if you decide to permanently leave Japan. See Here:

https://www.nta.go.jp/english/taxes/ind ... /12004.htm


On Tax Returns.
The Japanese Tax Return has to files by March 14th. You have to put all you Figures Gross and then get taxed on them.

You can then use the Japanese Tax Return when you File Your US Taxes on April 14.

You can then go back ans amend your Japanese Tax Return with the Foreign Tax Credit information and they will reduce or refund the Credits.

You could go back and do this for the last 3 years. It wouldn't surprise me if you were in for a tax refund due to your rental property income.

How old are the buildings and what are they built of? Timber frame? Concrete? Reinforced Concrete? All treated differently for Depreciation.

You can claim depreciation on the structure but not the land, but not from this year on... Only back filings...
Timber frame buildings can be depreciated of 22 years, and if it's an old building you could claim accelleratated depreciation i.e. a big loss
Concrete can be depreciated of 30 years
Reinforced Concrete can be depreciated of 47 years
Note - This does reduce the Tax Basis of the property, so you will end up paying Capital Gains Tax on all that depreciation loss claimed when you sell the property...
Interior, Fixtures and Fittings can be depreciated of 15 years
Many items can be taken as an expense in the year incurred, including maybe travel back to the US to check the properties or look for new ones...
You can expense the Mortgage Interest and other expenses against the Rental Income.
And then claim that big negative number against your income to reduce you taxable income and therefore reduce the amount of tax you have to pay in Japan.


I can try and find out who my American friend in a similar situation uses to do his accounts...
Just to follow you on legitimate expenses, what about stamp duty when you purchase the house is this an acceptable expense for your foreign income declaration on your Japanese ta return?

Re: Permanent Residency and being taxed on US assets/rental income

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:56 pm
by Tkydon
Yes, Stamp Duty and other payments incurred in acquiring the property are legitimate expenses in the first year.

The Depreciation loop-hole has been closed, so you can no longer claim that as a loss against other income, but you can still claim it as an expense against the overseas property's income.

Re: Permanent Residency and being taxed on US assets/rental income

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:45 am
by vikingslav
goodandbadjapan wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:12 am
vikingslav wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:37 am

Here's my situation. I'm retired on a modest university pension in Japan. I have a house rented out and savings in the UK, all declared to Japanese.

I pay tax on the rented income in UK, so nothing to pay on that in Japan. However the UK assets and rental income in the UK push my Japanese tax up substantially to 350,000 which seems not reasonable.
I'm not sure I understand this correctly (I probably don't!) but you said you pay tax on UK rental income in UK so don't pay here, but then say the rental income and assets push your tax up here. So does that not mean you are in fact paying tax here on it? And why do your UK assets push your tax up here? Unless you are making capital gains or income from those assets.
Thank you for responding. I agree that it amounts to paying tax here in Japan. I'm unclear about this, but the issue seems to be, as you suggest, that I derive income from the house by renting it out. I wonder if it would be better to sell the house and thus have no income and therefore no higher tax payment (plus higher rate for national insurance plus 30% health payments instead of 20%)? I queried this with the tax people here but they insisted I"m not being taxed twice. I do however feel I am in a situation of double taxation with no representation (either in Japan or the UK). People have gone to war for less...

Re: Permanent Residency and being taxed on US assets/rental income

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:08 am
by Wales4rugbyWC23
vikingslav wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:45 am
goodandbadjapan wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:12 am
vikingslav wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:37 am

Here's my situation. I'm retired on a modest university pension in Japan. I have a house rented out and savings in the UK, all declared to Japanese.

I pay tax on the rented income in UK, so nothing to pay on that in Japan. However the UK assets and rental income in the UK push my Japanese tax up substantially to 350,000 which seems not reasonable.
I'm not sure I understand this correctly (I probably don't!) but you said you pay tax on UK rental income in UK so don't pay here, but then say the rental income and assets push your tax up here. So does that not mean you are in fact paying tax here on it? And why do your UK assets push your tax up here? Unless you are making capital gains or income from those assets.
Thank you for responding. I agree that it amounts to paying tax here in Japan. I'm unclear about this, but the issue seems to be, as you suggest, that I derive income from the house by renting it out. I wonder if it would be better to sell the house and thus have no income and therefore no higher tax payment (plus higher rate for national insurance plus 30% health payments instead of 20%)? I queried this with the tax people here but they insisted I"m not being taxed twice. I do however feel I am in a situation of double taxation with no representation (either in Japan or the UK). People have gone to war for less...
9
I personally would see a Japanese accountant about this. (I have been doing this for my rentals) Even if you keep the house or sell it, there are issues on both sides. Selling, there will be issues with capital gains tax especially if you claimed the depreciation allowance and you bring the money over to Japan. However, given you are in your 70s not having always to worry about a tenant might give you peace of mind.

In terms of double taxation, in relation to the rental income a good accountant would sort this out.

As for the vote, I think expats who have been residing for over 15 years have been given the vote back recently there was either a court case over it, or a campaign, but it does very much depend on the efficiency of your local council getting the ballot paper out to you on time.

Re: Permanent Residency and being taxed on US assets/rental income

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:30 pm
by Tkydon
vikingslav wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:45 am Thank you for responding. I agree that it amounts to paying tax here in Japan. I'm unclear about this, but the issue seems to be, as you suggest, that I derive income from the house by renting it out. I wonder if it would be better to sell the house and thus have no income and therefore no higher tax payment (plus higher rate for national insurance plus 30% health payments instead of 20%)? I queried this with the tax people here but they insisted I"m not being taxed twice. I do however feel I am in a situation of double taxation with no representation (either in Japan or the UK). People have gone to war for less...
If you have been living in Japan for more than 5 years in the last 10 years, you are a Permanent Resident for Tax Purposes and your Global Income is taxable in Japan, whether you remit funds to Japan or not.

Under the Tax Treaty between the UK and Japan, Rental Income from Real Estate in the UK is taxable in the UK as locally sourced income.
https://www.mof.go.jp/tax_policy/summar ... n-UKEN.pdf
Article 6 refers.

You run the accounting books in the UK and pay Income Tax in the UK on the Profit after Expenses and Interest but before paying back the principle payment (paying down the debt).
You then have to report the same income in Japan and pay Income Tax in Japan on the Profit after Expenses and Interest but before paying back the principle (paying down the debt).
You could actually claim travel to the UK for management of the property as an expense, and complete the Blue Return instead of the White Return.
You then claim the Foreign Tax Credit in Japan for the Tax paid in the UK, so you will get compensated back that amount of tax and not be double taxed. You only pay the amount of tax of the higher tax country...

If you are a long term resident of Japan and you sell the property, you will not be taxed on the Capital Gain in the UK, but you will be taxed on the Capital Gain in Yen terms in Japan (over the Y500,000 Capital Gain Deduction as it is not your Primary Residence) at 20.315% (15% National, 0.315% Reconstruction, and 5% Residents' Taxes).
You will then lose the income and the opportunity for further asset appreciation.

You should get an Accountant to work out two scenarios for you to see which would be the better course of action.