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Re: Dr. Burton Malkiel - (A Random Walk Down Wall Street) - Stock/Bond Allocation

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:44 pm
by Kanto
fools_gold wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:38 pm Captainspoke, thanks for this. I was thinking of building up a cash buffer as I approach retirement rather than putting more money into bonds. I have two main worries about investing: one is rising interest rates, the other is the yen getting stronger over the long term. I think holding some cash is a good hedge against both of these.
captainspoke wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:41 am
The “other” chunk is two Pimco CEFs, which, ironically, bet on the bond market. High fees, but they’re leveraged, and pay ~10% and ~12% respectively (dividends). Sometimes volatile, but long term solid. One is PTY, if you want to look, rated well by morningstar. But since bond funds these days only yield about 1.5%, these have a little more oomph, in that respect.
By the way, did you buy the CEFs through a Japanese broker? I tried to buy PTY a few years back but my order was rejected...
I am generally curious why you would choose a fund that is mostly risky/junk bonds, with an incredibly high management fee over a low-fee bond index. What is the case for a fund like PTY?

Re: Dr. Burton Malkiel - (A Random Walk Down Wall Street) - Stock/Bond Allocation

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:13 am
by fools_gold
Kanto wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:44 pm I am generally curious why you would choose a fund that is mostly risky/junk bonds, with an incredibly high management fee over a low-fee bond index. What is the case for a fund like PTY?
It wouldn't have been part of my bond allocation. That's all in low cost index funds.

Most of my money is in passive funds, but I like to use a small part as fun money to invest in single stocks and other things. It scratches an itch and stops me from messing around with my main investments.

In this case, I was looking to buy some dividend stocks, ETFs, and CEFs to provide an income stream for when I retire. The case for PTY is that it pays out a good yield while attempting to preserve capital. They use leverage to do this, and that's why the fees are so high. Two thirds of the fees are used to pay interest on the borrowed money. Because of the kind of bonds it invests in and the leverage used, I wouldn't consider PTY a replacement for a conventional index fund.

Re: Dr. Burton Malkiel - (A Random Walk Down Wall Street) - Stock/Bond Allocation

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:46 am
by captainspoke
As for PTY…

• Bought via a US broker.

• Similar to what fools_gold mentions, for me it does not function in/as a bond category, I placed it in “other”. For me, too, it’s an it-scratches-an-itch kind of thing. Beyond that itch, as an alternative investment it lacks correlation to some typical indexes/benchmarks, so a case might be made for it that way. So while not a bond for me, how about some bond comparisons?!?!

• Morningstar gives it five stars for overall, five year, and ten year. For three years it gets four stars. It rates historic return as high, but risk is also rated high. Its benchmark index is BBgBarc US Agg Bond TR USD, and against that it has a beta of 0.56.

• Over 10 yrs it outperforms its benchmark. $10k in the benchmark index would have resulted in $14,616. In PTY you would have $31,842 (and that includes a big drop this past spring). Further comparison, the same $10k in the morningstar multisector bond index would result in $19,700.

• Interestingly, for TLT, used in the comparison in the Carlson article linked to earlier in this thread (and in contrast boosted by it recent spring performance), that same $10k over the same ten years would have resulted in $22,458.

• A more typical bond fund—what the average joe would buy/hold is AGG. Over the same ten years, $10k in AGG would result in $14,482.

(All these ten year comments are thru July 31, 2020.)

• Since its inception in 2003, I’m seeing that AGG has an annualized return of 4.36% (market price). OTOH, inception for PTY is 2002, and for its annualized return since then I see 13.15% (market price, slightly less for NAV--those can differ for a CEF).

Sooo, I own some PTY, and it’s about 4% of my US portfolio. I haven’t bet the farm on it, nor would I. But I guess it scratches an itch…! :)

Re: Dr. Burton Malkiel - (A Random Walk Down Wall Street) - Stock/Bond Allocation

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:24 am
by Kanto
captainspoke wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:46 am As for PTY…

• Bought via a US broker.

• Similar to what fools_gold mentions, for me it does not function in/as a bond category, I placed it in “other”. For me, too, it’s an it-scratches-an-itch kind of thing. Beyond that itch, as an alternative investment it lacks correlation to some typical indexes/benchmarks, so a case might be made for it that way. So while not a bond for me, how about some bond comparisons?!?!

• Morningstar gives it five stars for overall, five year, and ten year. For three years it gets four stars. It rates historic return as high, but risk is also rated high. Its benchmark index is BBgBarc US Agg Bond TR USD, and against that it has a beta of 0.56.

• Over 10 yrs it outperforms its benchmark. $10k in the benchmark index would have resulted in $14,616. In PTY you would have $31,842 (and that includes a big drop this past spring). Further comparison, the same $10k in the morningstar multisector bond index would result in $19,700.

• Interestingly, for TLT, used in the comparison in the Carlson article linked to earlier in this thread (and in contrast boosted by it recent spring performance), that same $10k over the same ten years would have resulted in $22,458.

• A more typical bond fund—what the average joe would buy/hold is AGG. Over the same ten years, $10k in AGG would result in $14,482.

(All these ten year comments are thru July 31, 2020.)

• Since its inception in 2003, I’m seeing that AGG has an annualized return of 4.36% (market price). OTOH, inception for PTY is 2002, and for its annualized return since then I see 13.15% (market price, slightly less for NAV--those can differ for a CEF).

Sooo, I own some PTY, and it’s about 4% of my US portfolio. I haven’t bet the farm on it, nor would I. But I guess it scratches an itch…! :)
That is definitely intersting. Do your figures adjust for the high fees? 2-3% correct?

Looks like a good fund to get into 10 years ago.

However I would be wary of entering it today "...a portfolio that is most heavily weighted in mortgages (37%), high-yield credit (21%) and non-USD developed-market debt (12%) at the moment."

I am too chicken myself though.

Re: Dr. Burton Malkiel - (A Random Walk Down Wall Street) - Stock/Bond Allocation

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:17 am
by captainspoke
Kanto wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:24 am ... I would be wary of entering it today
...
I'm seriously wary of entering anything today...! :lol:

There were a few new (to me) dividend payers that I was looking at last month, and I held off. They're up, so coulda woulda shoulda, and all that. I'll keep them in my notes, and maybe another chance will come.

**
And you said earlier: "When someone has a cash emergency fund that could cover multiple years of living expenses they can in effect be more risky with their investments."

One nice aspect to writing things up is that you get other eyes on it, and opinions about it. What you say there is (or was) kind of parked in the back of my mind, and I don't think I would ever have articulated it that directly.

But that's concisely put--it rings/feels true. So I'll be borrowing that line and paraphrasing it to myself (or anyone else who might listen). Thanks! ;)

PTY fees: I think I saw 1.16% (or 1.19%) earlier. I'll check again and confirm that.

Re: Dr. Burton Malkiel - (A Random Walk Down Wall Street) - Stock/Bond Allocation

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:53 am
by Kanto
captainspoke wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:17 am
Kanto wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:24 am ... I would be wary of entering it today
...
I'm seriously wary of entering anything today...! :lol:

There were a few new (to me) dividend payers that I was looking at last month, and I held off. They're up, so coulda woulda shoulda, and all that. I'll keep them in my notes, and maybe another chance will come.

**
And you said earlier: "When someone has a cash emergency fund that could cover multiple years of living expenses they can in effect be more risky with their investments."

One nice aspect to writing things up is that you get other eyes on it, and opinions about it. What you say there is (or was) kind of parked in the back of my mind, and I don't think I would ever have articulated it that directly.

But that's concisely put--it rings/feels true. So I'll be borrowing that line and paraphrasing it to myself (or anyone else who might listen). Thanks! ;)

PTY fees: I think I saw 1.16% (or 1.19%) earlier. I'll check again and confirm that.
Haha of course. I am partially speaking from,

(a) A position of jelousy. I am 32 years old and started investing this year.

and

(b) As a Boglehead, who is very cautious of anything with a high fee attached!

Re: Dr. Burton Malkiel - (A Random Walk Down Wall Street) - Stock/Bond Allocation

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:38 am
by captainspoke
TokyoWart wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:27 pm captainspoke

Thank you for the detailed and thought-provoking response. I’m sorry you had to write that twice. Here are my thoughts:

1. Very interesting to see 6 years of yen and 6 years of dollars in cash. Main message to me was 50:50 split between yen and dollars for those safest buckets. ...

2. Like you I have never been a big fan of bonds and I think the opportunity cost of having those two cash buckets not in bonds is lower now than it ever has been. I’ve thought about creating a Treasury Direct account to buy short term T-bills for the cash buckets when I reach retirement but actually US banks currently give better rates on short term instruments.

3. I like your relatively high equity allocation (which I counted as 57% + 19% = 76%) but I am relatively numb to risk. My personal opinion is that if you survived March 2020 without selling you can take anything in market volatility. Maybe a more important point is that if 12 years of expenses (the cash positions) is only 16% of your portfolio you have a generous safety margin.

4. Also sounds like you are pretty tax efficient. I am at the point where I am reluctant to buy high dividend stocks because I hate to pay taxes just to reinvest them. It sounds like those dividends are helping extend the life of your cash bucket.
….
Writing it twice made for a better post—as with any writing situation, the second draft will almost certainly be better. And I think I clarified some things to myself in the process, so it was worth it for me, too.

(1) This point, with 50:50 in yen and dollars, along with the probable timeframes for those, are things that have more or less evolved on their own, rather than being a deliberate plan. While it was a conscious decision to keep my severance here, that was tentative at first—wanting to be cautious and move slowly—and it’s only with a couple few years hindsight, that I think, “yeah, this is working out okay and I’m comfortable with this”, and that I’ll stick with it until something comes up to change my mind. (nothing has, so far) (1a) As you are aware, I’ve had some health issues, and apart from whatever other typical ongoing costs/expenses there are in my life (six months, or six years), my funeral here—and then some—should be covered without having to consider what to sell/liquidate, or even worry about quickly bringing enough for that into the country.

(1b) Apart from that, the calculation that it’ll last six years is kind of a back-of-the-envelope projection. We’ve been tracking our expenses for years, so besides the usual bills, we’re aware of the need for an occasional new appliance, a/c unit, water heater, etc. With some travel right after retiring, I spent more (monthly/yearly), but last year was some hospital time, and this year the virus has us pinned down. I did spend some on a private room, but overall that was comparable to (or less than) traveling. This year I’m almost just living off my pension—kind of like that six year projection has been put on pause.

(1c) And sure, back to that 50:50 split into yen and dollars… looks kind of interesting. Keep lots of cash, and then be smart—hedge the f/x, just in case. Brilliant plan? Well, sorry, but it has just kind of happened that way, due to: wanting to (again, tentatively) hold significant cash here in yen, and on the other side (US acct) being my usual, sort of conservative self (keeping investable cash on hand).

The background is that up to last fall, I had less cash on hand there ($). At that point I sold quite a few things, and cash might have touched 30% by december 1st. And then, virus… I bought a couple things in early March, definitely too early. But I got one purchase right (l think the 23rd), and continued with four(?) buys thru May and later June. Adding to core ETFs, and new positions in a few of the dividend stocks. And in so doing arrived at my current $ cash percentage. It wasn’t a target or goal—the market got so that I didn’t want to spend any more on it. And that cash level seemed/seems prudent. And then I noticed that it was about the same as I had on hand here.

Such a plan, eh? :roll:

Let me now post this, and I’ll try to address 2, 3, and 4 later.

Re: Dr. Burton Malkiel - (A Random Walk Down Wall Street) - Stock/Bond Allocation

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:30 am
by captainspoke
(2) Low opportunity cost for not being in bonds. Sure, and yes, I’ve looked at my cash pile(s), and have guesstimated the interest payments that I’m missing out on. But it’s not enough return to balance that there is also some risk in bond funds.

Eg, have a look at AGG and TLT from March 6th to March 18th, and they’re both down for that period. Tho not as dramatically down as stocks then, still down. And one of the reasons for having bonds is so that you can rebalance when your allocations have shifted. During this short period, if a bond fund holder had liquidated to buy stocks, they would have lost the equivalent of a couple years’ worth of interest payments, since the prices of those bond funds had declined. Yes, both of those bond funds recovered in the following weeks, so you could’ve sold later, but stocks bounced back some, too.

My point is that cash was arguably as good as having held the equivalent amount in a bond fund, and perhaps better. (And I’m aware that AGG/TLT are both US$ bond funds, and that due to some big f/x moves during March, a world bond fund likely behaved differently. But Carlson, in the linked blog above, used TLT, so I’ve stuck with that and AGG.)

(3) I’m comfortable with the relatively high equity allocation, but probably since I wasn’t clear about what I was giving as portfolio percentages, equities are actually a little lower than that. The percentages I gave were for my US account, those did not include the cash I have here in japan as a portion of the total (tho I was talking about it at the same time). By adding that for an overall total, my cash percentage is quite a bit higher, and the equity percentages somewhat lower.

As for having survived March 2020, that seems like it's over and done with. I'm down about 3.5% from my February high (but know one person in the US who is well above theirs--very narrow bets on big tech). My concern is the coming decade--what will typical returns likely be?

(4) Tax efficient…? :o (and this part is irrelevant to non-US people) There were two changes that I’m not yet comfortable with. One is that with retirement, I shifted from earned income (and the FEIE), to unearned income (pension, passive) and the FTC. The other is the tax law change (differing deductions, etc). I’m still feeling out the thresholds. I paid about $500 US tax for 2019, but that was due to having sold what I did last fall.

For Japan, I am of course paying tax on dividends here, and am aware that I could manage things differently by focusing only on capital appreciation. Personal choice, I guess, but it does give me some new money to play with—leave as cash, buy another div stock, add to another position, maybe give it away…?!?

Re: Dr. Burton Malkiel - (A Random Walk Down Wall Street) - Stock/Bond Allocation

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:48 am
by TokyoWart
captainspoke,

Thanks for the additional detailed replies. Good reminder that in retirement I'll want to switch from FEIE to FTC. I think you understate how well you did in coming through the March 2020 drop. That is exactly the kind of sudden drop which devastates the early retiree and I can't count the number of posts I saw in March on US investing forums from people who were exiting the market because they were early in retirement. I think we face a lot of volatility for those higher equity allocations but don't see bond investors as being compensated adequately for inflation risk.