change UK state pension from NICs class 3 to 2

[Bushiman]

Anyone had any luck finding the definition of ‘immediate.’ I left my last job in the UK in Jul/Aug ‘92 (only a 4wk summer job, but some NI contributions paid) then moved to Japan in Jan ‘93. Hard to describe a 5 month gap as immediate, but without clear guidance who knows?

Almost same circumstances as you...
I wrote that I worked until such-and-such time (as they can see from my NI record), then prepared for work abroad which took 2~3months, then started work immediately after arrival...
I was accepted for Class 2 repayments.

[JimmyK]

Thanks. That’s helpful!

[JimmyK]

BTW, Bushiman, how long did you work in the UK (and how many years contributions did you pay) before leaving? I think I might be ok to challenge the decision on grounds that I worked in UK before leaving for Japan, albeit 5mths later. Just not sure about the contributions. Having said that, I’ve already been approved for class 3, so presumably I’ve paid sufficient or I wouldn’t have got that?

[Bushiman]

BTW, Bushiman, how long did you work in the UK (and how many years contributions did you pay) before leaving? I think I might be ok to challenge the decision on grounds that I worked in UK before leaving for Japan, albeit 5mths later. Just not sure about the contributions. Having said that, I’ve already been approved for class 3, so presumably I’ve paid sufficient or I wouldn’t have got that?

I was a full-time university student before leaving... I had worked part-time jobs off and on for 4~5yrs while studying but had only accumulated 4 'full' years of contributions, and 2~3(?) of those were the ones the government gave me (for free) while I was doing my A-Levels.
I can't remember the differences in requirements between the criteria for Class 2 & Class 3, but for me, I checked the boxes for having enough full years of contributions, lived in the UK for over a certain amount of time, and I was in (part-time) employment (pretty much) up until departing...

[Moneymatters]

...Having said that, I’ve already been approved for class 3, so presumably I’ve paid sufficient or I wouldn’t have got that?

I didn't think you had to have paid in to get approved for Class 3.
Check the table here.
https://retirewiki.jp/wiki/United_Kingdom

[JimmyK]

Yes, that seems to be the case. For Class 3 approval you only need to satisfy 1 of 3 conditions. One of those being having ‘lived in the UK for a period of 3 consecutive years at any time prior to the period you’re claiming for.’ It doesn’t state if that is during adulthood only, so it should apply to any period. In that case, most Brits would comfortably tick this box. One of the others is to have paid at least 3 yrs in contributions and/or credits. I think that might have been a criteria that changed some years ago, as I was initially turned down for class 3. I recall in the letter I received from HMRC they referred to the fact that although I had 3 yrs of contributions, most of these were from credits (correct). The implication being these don’t count in the same way as NIC when working. I think there’s no longer a distinction between credits (unemployment benefit, for example) and contributions from employment. You get at least 2 yrs if you’re in education between age 16-18 I think, but this would only be something you’d need to satisfy if you haven’t lived in UK for 3 consecutive years. So, although it’s not strictly true to say that all Brits are eligible for a UK pension, there must be very few that don’t meet at least one of the 3 conditions. Class 2 has stricter requirements and it looks like all must be satisfied in order to get approved.

The reason I’m banging on about this, is because I’m concerned that if I challenge HMRC’s decision to deny me class 2, there’s a risk I could lose class 3 that I’ve already been approved for. They would obviously need to review all details of my circumstances and it would be a disaster if, in doing so, they somehow determined I’m not eligible for class 3 either! Class 2 is clearly the better deal than 3, but 3 is way better than no pension of course! Like others trying the same challenge, I think the odds of HMRC giving me class 2 approval are extremely slim, but as long as there’s no risk to losing class 3 when making this challenge, it’s worth a shot.

[IloveJapan]

One thing I also wonder about is if long periods of unemployment could ever make the UK authorities challenge your residency for tax purposes.
- In other words, could they say “Well, if xyz was unemployed for a few years, how committed are they to living overseas?”

I don’t know if applying to do NICs has ever led to a residency challenge. However, since the Gains Cooper case they have been known to mount residency challenges on people living overseas. This is usually for people who are seen to have too many “ties” to the UK though, so maybe just being unemployed is not relevant?

[Deep Blue]

One thing I also wonder about is if long periods of unemployment could ever make the UK authorities challenge your residency for tax purposes.
- In other words, could they say “Well, if xyz was unemployed for a few years, how committed are they to living overseas?”

I don’t know if applying to do NICs has ever led to a residency challenge. However, since the Gains Cooper case they have been known to mount residency challenges on people living overseas. This is usually for people who are seen to have too many “ties” to the UK though, so maybe just being unemployed is not relevant?

Just no.

[Moneymatters]

I don’t know if applying to do NICs has ever led to a residency challenge. However, since the Gains Cooper case they have been known to mount residency challenges on people living overseas. This is usually for people who are seen to have too many “ties” to the UK though, so maybe just being unemployed is not relevant?

Delighted to see that not knowing something isn’t going to hold you back on your mission to cause doubt in the minds of others searching this forum for fact based advice on paying voluntary NIC!! #purpose #passion

But, riddled as this forum is with independently wealthy serial entrepreneurs, the Gains Cooper comment was intriguing.

“ For Mr Gaines-Cooper the following factors, amongst others, counted against his argument that he had made a “distinct break”:

He owned an estate in Oxford … where his wife and child resided.*
He had a string of valuable assets such as guns, vintage motor cars and paintings, all of which were kept at his Oxford estate.”

https://lavenpartners.com/thought-leade ... rules-fav/

So I’ll briefly compare this to my personal situation as a risk assessment.
1. Not only don’t I own an estate in England. I don’t even keep any kind of car there!
2. My family reside painfully close to me here in Japan..
3. The only artwork of mine in the UK are two Xmas tree baubles** I “made” At infant school. Given that I have no recollection of making them and my name is written by a teacher. We must conclude didn’t play much of a hand in their creation and whilst never offered for sale, I suspect their value is sentimental (at best..).

Anyway. Given you are likely taking a well earned break from the Nuclear Plant(or wherever) and will likely be off work until Jan 6th. In the spirit of seasonal goodwill I implore you to take a “distinct break” from this topic.

BTW. You never mention if you’ve actually applied to make voluntary NIC payments.
Someone, not me, but someone might postulate that you are only here repeatedly and belligerently trying to justify your lack of action in that regard. And that inaction is just because it’s a bit of a faff…
But not me. Nothing could be further from my mind.

Now. Did anyone else spot all the movie references in the latest walllace and gromit outing? I liked the Aliens one..

* For a multi millionaire. It’s a bit harsh to let his family live out of a car… But I guess that’s what it takes to build wealth..

** Milk bottle foil and egg cartoons. But any true Brit already knew that.

[Tkydon]

This has been discussed before.

1. Back in 1999 and 2000, Class 3 Contributions were cheaper than Class 2 Contributions, so if you applied for the cheapest option way back, then you may be paying Class 3, as you may not have known that Class 2 became cheaper, and you may be able to claim reassessment to Class 2 from 2001 onwards, and be credited either with a refund, or payment of subsequent unpaid Contributions.

2. The assessment criteria and the official guidance to the Assessors were changed fairly recently, from AND to Either/Or.
If you have had an application Voluntary Contributions denied in the past, you should re-apply now that the criteria have been clarified.

I will see if I can find the supporting doc...