RetireJapan

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:04 pm I used to think and say the very same until realising that the katakana rendering is actually pretty close to how the Swedes themselves would pronounce it. So that shut me up

Katakana tends to be more accurate than English is for non-English names: city names like Roma or Munchen, and people's names

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:00 pm

goodandbadjapan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:26 pm I signed up for on demand (or thought I did) but have been watching it on the TV just fine! Will cancel after tournament so will effectively have paid 2,400 yen for whole tournament with English commentary. Think that's a reasonably good deal.

ABE or magnanimous?

Usually I'd actually be magnanimous, but feeling less so this time as am a bit fed up with the assumption that after the Germany win, the cup is there for the taking. So, England to do ok, but then get thumped somewhere along the line and brought back down to earth!

goodandbadjapan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:40 pm

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:00 pm

goodandbadjapan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:26 pm I signed up for on demand (or thought I did) but have been watching it on the TV just fine! Will cancel after tournament so will effectively have paid 2,400 yen for whole tournament with English commentary. Think that's a reasonably good deal.

ABE or magnanimous?

Usually I'd actually be magnanimous, but feeling less so this time as am a bit fed up with the assumption that after the Germany win, the cup is there for the taking. So, England to do ok, but then get thumped somewhere along the line and brought back down to earth!

Actually the final is there for the reaching, beating Germany has opened up their draw to the extent they should actually get there. Not living in the U.K. makes me less concerned by the prospect than I once might have been! Best of luck England (but not too much…).

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:49 pm

goodandbadjapan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:40 pm

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:00 pm

ABE or magnanimous?

Usually I'd actually be magnanimous, but feeling less so this time as am a bit fed up with the assumption that after the Germany win, the cup is there for the taking. So, England to do ok, but then get thumped somewhere along the line and brought back down to earth!

Actually the final is there for the reaching, beating Germany has opened up their draw to the extent they should actually get there. Not living in the U.K. makes me less concerned by the prospect than I once might have been! Best of luck England (but not too much…).

Yes, suspect they will get to the final and face Belgium or Italy, nether of whom will be easy.

RetireJapan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:24 pm

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:04 pm I used to think and say the very same until realising that the katakana rendering is actually pretty close to how the Swedes themselves would pronounce it. So that shut me up

Katakana tends to be more accurate than English is for non-English names: city names like Roma or Munchen, and people's names

Within its limits I agree, katakana generally does its best to render it accurately in the foreign tongue. Whereas English rides roughshod. I mean ‘Florence?’, ‘Venice’? ‘Brussels? ‘Moscow?’ Just who do we think we are?

And yet, ‘Sweden’ in katakana doesn’t approximate to the Swedish pronunciation. And ‘Lisbon’ too. Must read up on this!

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:06 pm

RetireJapan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:24 pm

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:04 pm I used to think and say the very same until realising that the katakana rendering is actually pretty close to how the Swedes themselves would pronounce it. So that shut me up

Katakana tends to be more accurate than English is for non-English names: city names like Roma or Munchen, and people's names

Within its limits I agree, katakana generally does its best to render it accurately in the foreign tongue. Whereas English rides roughshod. I mean ‘Florence?’, ‘Venice’? ‘Brussels? ‘Moscow?’ Just who do we think we are?

And yet, ‘Sweden’ in katakana doesn’t approximate to the Swedish pronunciation. And ‘Lisbon’ too. Must read up on this!

Sweden is interesting as it seems to be an example where Japanese goes with the English name for a foreign country rather than the original. Another one is Spain, not Espagne. Wonder why.

Indeed, the consistency of katakana application leaves something to be desired. As diplomacy buffs and sumo fans alike will no doubt know, there was a big show a few years ago of changing the katakana of Georgia (the country) from jo-jia to gurujia, which is closer to the original (which I believe is something like gruzya), but there are countless others examples where they haven't bothered. And don't get me started on the laughable way the Japanese just completely change the pronunciation of Chinese names to suit themselves. I can't talk to Japanese people about Chinese politics or geography as I have no idea who or what they're referring to. To be fair, I believe the Chinese do likewise to Japanese names.

Gulliver wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:26 am Thanks! I’ll try that. Also, sorry-I should’ve said England not UK (American mistake). Respect to all the Celts.

Good save there Gulliver.
Even the English get to wrong themselves cause they still put the Union Jack up for England.
Never see a Welshman, Scotsman make that mistake.

I am an ABE fan.

Within its limits I agree, katakana generally does its best to render it accurately in the foreign tongue. Whereas English rides roughshod. I mean ‘Florence?’, ‘Venice’? ‘Brussels? ‘Moscow?’ Just who do we think we are?

The history of these names is more complicated than you might assume. English use "Florence" because the name of the city in Latin was "Florentia". It became Fiorenza in Tuscan and "Firenze" today through vowel shifts. You could even argue that the modern English is closer to the name in Roman times than the current Italian one is. When Moscow was founded it was spelled with the equivalent of "Moskov" (Москов) and later became Moskva (Москва). The English language has a longer relationship with these places so its pronunciation is often closer to a historical pronunciation while Japanese has both a more geographically distant (so no political stake in preserving one name over another) and relatively newer relationship with the locations so it is more likely to be based on current pronunciations.

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:06 pm

RetireJapan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:24 pm

Beaglehound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:04 pm I used to think and say the very same until realising that the katakana rendering is actually pretty close to how the Swedes themselves would pronounce it. So that shut me up

Katakana tends to be more accurate than English is for non-English names: city names like Roma or Munchen, and people's names

Within its limits I agree, katakana generally does its best to render it accurately in the foreign tongue. Whereas English rides roughshod. I mean ‘Florence?’, ‘Venice’? ‘Brussels? ‘Moscow?’ Just who do we think we are?

And yet, ‘Sweden’ in katakana doesn’t approximate to the Swedish pronunciation. And ‘Lisbon’ too. Must read up on this!

My fave is ブルゴーニュ. For Bourgogne as in the wine. It could even be an actual place too.
The french pronouce it a bit different from the katakana at the end but a million miles closer than the english pronunciation of "bur-gun-dy".
And lets the honest, even if we get the correct word, the english pronunciation of Bourgogne, "Borgoin"? isn't much closer.

So whenever ordering I stick close to the katakana lest I look like a wine noob even though I've drank more wine than my server has water.
Years spent mastering how to effortlessly say sexy things like, "Montepulciano d'Abruzzo" lay wasted. Then after a couple of bottles I too lay, wasted.