¥68,000?

kuma
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Re: ¥68,000?

Post by kuma »

Even if you paid the 400 yen a month for 40 years ‘tis amounts to only 96,000 a year. Hardly going to make a difference is it?
For a 2.44% increase to your kokumin nenkin contributions (400 / 16,410), you get a 12.3% boost to your monthly pension (200 / (780,100 / 480)).

These numbers tell me two things: (1) that the additional pension is a great deal; (2) if the additional pension payout constitutes a 12.3% boost to the basic pension, the basic pension is small to start with and can do with any boost available.

The OP asked about maxing out an iDeCo, so is clearly seeking such a boost. I agree with previous posters that the additional pension is a great little scheme; small but mighty. I'm going to write a separate post about why I think fuka nenkin is worthwhile -- in my circumstances I view it as a potential million yen payout for sacrificing three vending machine drinks a month.
You should pay 67,000 yen a month max so you can join the government pension top-up scheme (400 yen a month).
A minor point, but the information below suggests you only need to sacrifice 5,000 yen of your annual iDeCo allowance to take advantage of fuka nenkin (rather than 1,000 yen per month / 12,000 yen per year) if you manage your payment amounts/timings well:
Since January 2018, contributions have been viewed as annual amounts, and participants now have the option of paying their contributions once or multiple times a year in the month or months of their choosing (annual unit contribution).

Note: You are permitted to change your monthly contribution once per year.

https://www.ideco-koushiki.jp/english/
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Re: ¥68,000?

Post by RetireJapan »

kuma wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:30 am A minor point, but the information below suggests you only need to sacrifice 5,000 yen of your annual iDeCo allowance to take advantage of fuka nenkin (rather than 1,000 yen per month / 12,000 yen per year) if you manage your payment amounts/timings well:
Since January 2018, contributions have been viewed as annual amounts, and participants now have the option of paying their contributions once or multiple times a year in the month or months of their choosing (annual unit contribution).

Note: You are permitted to change your monthly contribution once per year.

https://www.ideco-koushiki.jp/english/
That is extremely interesting. My wife actually lost a lot more, as we were given faulty information and her iDeCo contributions stopped for several months :evil:
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kuma
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Re: ¥68,000?

Post by kuma »

I've only picked the low-hanging fruit that is fuka nenkin so far (report now posted as promised: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=587) and am still investigating iDeCo (and investment in general) from the outside at the moment. But from my inexperienced perspective, could one annual payment optimise the iDeCo in multiple ways, as below, if people have the funds to hand for such a lump sum? Apologies if this is well trodden ground in either the blog or the forum, and for any errors.

Points 1, 2 and 4 are only valid for kokumin nenkin people who are also fuka nenkin subscribers and able to max out their iDeCo, but points 3 and 5 are valid for all iDeCo subscribers albeit with different numbers. For fuka nenkin subscribers who wish to max out their iDeCo, the annual payment would be 811,000 (as 816,000 is the allowance, fuka nenkin contributions are 4,800 and only increments of 1,000 yen are allowable as far as I can tell).

(1) You'd fund your iDeCo by an extra 7,000 yen a year (811,000 compared to 804,000). The difference in contributions equates to just 583 yen per month, but multiply by a decade and this extra investment becomes non-trivial, especially if growth is achieved. If you went for the monthly deal, would you manage to siphon this 583 yen into an alternative investment, or would it just get squandered in the grand scheme of your accounts? If the latter, then the money is effectively 'free' to you in one school of thought... if you choose to use it. Since you are already a fuka nenkin subscriber, then I think I know how you'd feel about this...

(2) You'd use all but 200 yen of your annual 816,000 iDeCo / additional pension allowance (811,000 on iDeCo and 4,800 on fuka nenkin), thus realising 99.98% of your available tax breaks (this % dips a teensy bit lower if you use the early payment discount for fuka nenkin). The 67,000 per month method would leave 7,200 of the allowance unused, which still represents a successful usage rate of 99.12%, but since you are a fuka nenkin devotee, you are a fan of small gains and want to maximise the efficiency. In the monthly model, you 'lose' 7,000 yen of tax breaks compared to the annual model, and if this 7,000 yen were taxed at 20% (to pluck a number from the sky), that 1,400 yen equates to almost 30% of your fuka nenkin contributions.

(3) If you invested one lump sum in January, 100% of your investment would be invested for ~100% of the year (I don't know how you actually make the payments, but imagine it would be difficult / impossible to fully optimise to 1st Jan!). In a model where the investment x grew steadily by y% over the year and incurred no fees (which is, of course, not how the real world operates), your investment would be worth (100 + y)x/100, eg if you invested 800,000 and achieved 5% growth, you'd realise gains of 40,000 for a total of 840,000. In the monthly model, on average, approximately half of your annual total is invested for the full 12 months (say your Jan investment is made on 15th Jan it will be in the system for 11.5 months; you can pair this off with your 15th Dec investment -- in for only 0.5 months -- and see that the pair are held for a total of 12 months; and you can easily see how this applies to other pairs). Thus, on your 800,000, you effectively only receive the 5% growth on 400,000, leading to gains of 20,000 and a new total of 820,000. The annual model has outperformed by 20,000 yen, and this 20,000 yen represents 2.4% of the 820,000 total you would have got from the monthly model -- a very significant percentage in the context of the investment's growth percentage. (This isn't quite a fair comparison as I've assumed the annual payments are optimised to 1st Jan whereas the monthly payments are middle-of-the-month; I don't know how much choice one has in this in reality, so this is just a back of the envelope comparison.) Did I read somewhere on the blog / forum / in literature that the pros of this get-it-in-as-soon-as-possible strategy will statistically be likely to outweigh the cons of potentially mistiming the market and buying at a high price? And since you are repeating this strategy annually, you are mitigating the risk of one wild outlying point in time...?

(4) Combining (1) and (3), in the optimised scenario, you'd invest 811,000 as early as possible in Jan and realise 40,550 of growth leading to a total of 851,550, whereas in the 67,000 per month scenario, on average you'd invest approx half of your (sub-optimal) 804,000 for 12 months, thus realising 20,100 of gains and giving a total of 824,100. The gap in invested funds has now widened to 27,450, though monthly contributors would have 5,600 more yen in their pockets -- their investment was 7,000 lower at the start but they paid 1,400 more in tax -- if it hasn't been squandered).

(5) Also, my (limited) understanding of the monthly fee structure is that at SBI you pay 167 yen in a month with contributions and 64 yen in a month with no contributions. Thus, with one annual payment you'd pay 167 + (11 x 64) = 871 yen in a year compared to 167 x 12 = 2,004 yen in the monthly scenario for a raw saving of 1,133 yen (but percentagewise you've slashed monthly fees by 56.5%). I don't know whether these fees are paid from inside the investment or externally; if internally, then clearly the higher fees create more drag on the investment's growth in the monthly model.

Maybe not such a minor point after all!

Do the above assumptions hold, or are some built on shaky foundations? Do existing iDeCo subscribers advocate the annual method, or do you prefer monthly contributions, and what's your thought process when deciding?
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Re: ¥68,000?

Post by adamu »

iDeCo enforces monthly contributions, so there's no option when it comes to that.
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Re: ¥68,000?

Post by adamu »

Sorry. I missed this.
kuma wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:30 am
Since January 2018, contributions have been viewed as annual amounts, and participants now have the option of paying their contributions once or multiple times a year in the month or months of their choosing (annual unit contribution).

Note: You are permitted to change your monthly contribution once per year.

https://www.ideco-koushiki.jp/english/
But I recently signed up for an iDeCo with SBI, and there was no annual option, and further the monthly contributions were in increments of 1000 yen. I wonder if other providers are providing the annual payment option?

Here is the Japanese explanation (I've not sit down to read it in detail yet): https://www.ideco-koushiki.jp/library/# ... teogry_cat
kuma
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Re: ¥68,000?

Post by kuma »

Thanks, adamu.

I looked at the Rakuten site and they have some information about the annual / flexible contributions pasted below (via Google Translate, so the usual caveats about translated info...):
From January 2018, it has become possible to pay the pension on a yearly basis.
You can make contributions according to your own life plan, such as making contributions at the time of bonus.

[Example] In the case of the second insured person of monthly limit amount 23,000 yen (annual limit amount 276,000 yen ※)
 Example 1: June 138,000 yen, December 138,000 yen
 Example 2: bimonthly 46,000 yen
 Example 3: Quarterly 69,000 yen

You can flexibly set the amount to be paid.

The amount prior to the joining month can not be contributed. Depending on the joining period, full contributions may not be possible.
The annual contribution limit is (the number of months of participation × the maximum amount set for each insured person (monthly amount)).
You can freely set the monthly contribution amount to that limit.

https://dc.rakuten-sec.co.jp/about/
All of their examples do not exceed the cumulative monthly cap, eg Example 1 had half the annual limit deposited in June and half in Dec. Someone with better Japanese will be able to confirm if never exceeding your cumulative monthly cap is in fact the rule. (Which would make sense, as people could never get ahead of their monthly limits... preventing situations where a Category 1 person throws in their entire annual contribution in Jan then becomes Category 2 in Feb.)
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Re: ¥68,000?

Post by Jansen »

If memory serves me right, you aren't allowed to pay forward for the entire year in January, but you're allowed to top up your balance at the end of the year in December. That's what I read on some Japanese blog, probably, (I thought I read it on here but can't find the article), but I'm not sure the exact method of doing the top up, and as adamu says, can't find anything about it on the SBI site.

While I am a fan of compounding small gains, I'm not into min-maxing. The additional 400yen/mth is a once-in-a-lifetime and done thing. Messing with your iDeco balance is active work! That each interaction with SBI's iDeco handlers takes weeks is also not something I'm looking forward too.
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Re: ¥68,000?

Post by kuma »

Good points, well made. Having looked into things and listened to others, I'm going to apply for my iDeCo with monthly contributions.

Re annual contributions, I'd assumed the below...
"Since January 2018, contributions have been viewed as annual amounts, and participants now have the option of paying their contributions once or multiple times a year in the month or months of their choosing (annual unit contribution)."
... meant having the option of paying contributions once or multiple times a year in the month or months of my choosing. With no caveats.

But assumptions are dangerous -- doubly so with translated information, and triply so with financial products. I stand corrected; fully flexible payments were too good to be true, and even partially flexible payments might be impossible or impractical to make with providers. Thanks adamu, RJ and Jansen who have chimed in to say 'no can do'. This is all useful information to me as I'm trying to get clued up on the rules and processes before making my decision re provider and applying.
Jansen wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:51 am While I am a fan of compounding small gains, I'm not into min-maxing. The additional 400yen/mth is a once-in-a-lifetime and done thing. Messing with your iDeco balance is active work! That each interaction with SBI's iDeco handlers takes weeks is also not something I'm looking forward too.
Agree.

I don't like the sound of multi-month waits... nor having to deal with handlers (rather than just buttons on an online interface).

But I do like the sound of the benefits, so will iDeCo up in the near (or not so near) future...
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Re: ¥68,000?

Post by Sybil »

kuma wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:15 am But I do like the sound of the benefits, so will iDeCo up in the near (or not so near) future...
Remember it takes a few months to get the account up and running after your initial application. So even if you applied today, you probably won't have your account opened till September....
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Re: ¥68,000?

Post by Jansen »

I did a bit of research over the weekend regarding the annual payment option plan and learned that it's not actually a lump sum option, but rather an advanced payment plan where you can decided how much you'd like deducted for the coming year. This should make it much easier for one to hit the maximum of ¥811,000 per year as kuma theorised. Again, you're not allowed to pay forward, so you'll have to wait till December to make the maximum deduction. So you could have ¥67,000 deducted monthly between Jan to Nov, and a larger ¥74,000 in December. Theoretically.

This pre-filled form here for example, has only two payments a year, ¥100,000 in June and another ¥200,000 in December for a total of ¥300,000 total.
https://www.tantonet.jp/wp-content/them ... 068_03.png

For SBI, you'll have to call them to send you the forms.

https://site0.sbisec.co.jp/marble/multi ... m6=dc.flow
掛金の拠出を年単位へ変更
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