Japanese Language question

[douglasxwilliams]

Hi all...
For those of you that speak/understand Japanese well or are fluent...or those that speak more than one language...

I am not sure if there is a better way to ask this question, as i am having a difficult time expressing it.

But.... at what point of your Japanese language journey did you begin to NOT see things written in Japanese as "Japanese", but as the thing the words/characters represent. Like when you read/see something in your native language.

For example, I can walk into a room i have never been in before, and if there is a cardboard box with some words/sentences written in english that describe the contents, i immediately know what's in the box. I don't have to read each letter/word separately.

I assume that the same thing goes for native Japanese, when they see Kanji and Hiragana/Katakana on a box.

But, when I see that box and it has Japanese written on it...i have to read each character and kana...and sorta translate in my mind (a few times).

About my current situation...I have only been studying Japanese for a couple of years. I can read/write Hiragana & Katakana, and know some Kanji. Some simple books i can read...but it doesn't feel like reading English. maybe it never will be the same?

Anyway, just wondering what your thoughts/experiences are in this area .

thanks!

[goodandbadjapan]

Think it just really depends what is on the sign / thing you are reading. I bet you don't think or translate when you see 入口 or 出口. It's just an extension of that. Some things you will need to read / sound out / translate and there will be things like that forever, but others just enter your head as they are, so to speak. I read the odd book in Japanese but it still feels a bit like homework rather than the pleasure of just sitting and reading!

[AreTheyTheLemmings?]

That's a hard question to answer, not just because it varies from individual to individual, but also because you don't recognise the moment when it happens - you just sort of realise afterwards that you've been able to understand things much more easily for a while.

Don't be discouraged, though; that moment does come sooner or later.

[RetireJapan]

That might even be a meta skill. I learned Spanish to a near-native standard when I was 5, so I acquired the skills of 'think in the language', 'automatically process the language' and 'dream in the language'.

These skills trasferred very quickly to other languages, even languages I am not particularly proficient in

[adamu]

Japan is an island nation, so the language is very unique and difficult to learn. Also it has four seasons. Oh my, you're good at using chopsticks! Do you like natto?

More seriously, I think if you use the language daily, it will take a few years. Unless it's katakana. You'll never be able to read a department store floor guide / receipt / menu of katakana without sounding out every letter like a 5 year old. Or maybe that's just me.

[douglasxwilliams]

Hi all..

First, a BIG THANK YOU to everyone that replied. I really appreciate the time and the thoughtful answers.

@goodandbadjapan - You made a couple excellent points. You're right, I don't translate when i see 入る or 出る...or even 今、今日、駅. I didn't even consider that those were probably things that I used to have to translate when i first arrived in Japan 2.5+ years ago. I think i am just too impatient, especially as I race towards the retirement horizon...and i feel that my lack of fluency in Japanese will be a big hindrance for me. And, that was one of the points that was made in one of Ben's recent YouTube videos about Pros/Cons about retiring in Japan - the language and being able to communicate are crucial. And....I wish I could read more advanced books in Japanese. As it is, i have a collection of short stories for beginners that are occasionally "fun" to read.....more from the "i think that i understood that" versus really being immersed in a story.

@AreTheyTheLemmings - Thanks for the encouragement. I have heard from others too...about that moment where you don't realize (or realise ) when "it" happens. I wish i knew that it was forthcoming.

@RetireJapan - Interesting about the meta skill. This goes back to my real need for a time machine. though, i have had some dreams where I am attempting to speak Japanese...so I guess maybe...something is percolating in my brain.

@adamu - Heh-heh.... Four seasons. Check! (in fact, this is my third summer and i came to the realization a week ago that i kinda enjoy the summers in Japan now). Chopsticks...Check! (i had that observation from some co-workers. Sigh). Natto....eh...sorry.....tried it 3 times. just can't get it.
You raise a good point...and that is "...use the language daily". I do study every day...and use the language daily when i order coffee, go to the store, even talk with my wife. (though...she says she's Japanese, i am beginning to wonder....as she doesn't understand me many times when we're talking in Japanese. Though...she could just be choosing to ignore me? ) But...where I work, i don't need to speak Japanese to anyone...so, that is probably an issue for me. And oh yeah...I completely agree with you about katakana. I would rather go to the dentist. We were at a restaurant a couple of weeks ago...and after sounding out what i thought was one word (no spaces!!! gah!) ...and getting all of the sounds correct, i still was unable to understand what the word was. Finally, after about 10 minutes i asked my wife. What is "ra suto oda" She looked at me like was from another planet (which I am)....and said "Last order!!!" oh...."ラストオーダー" That is my issue with katakana...i never know when one word ends.

anyways....thank you again to all that helped! I can sleep again.

[Beaglehound]

she says she's Japanese, i am beginning to wonder....as she doesn't understand me many times when we're talking in Japanese. Though...she could just be choosing to ignore me?

I get this too, and not only with my wife. I think a lot of Japanese are not used to talking to people with less than perfect Japanese, and lack the skills/experience to infer the meaning. Particularly if you get even a single vowel sound in a word wrong and they struggle to make the correction in their mind.

[douglasxwilliams]

I get this too, and not only with my wife. I think a lot of Japanese are not used to talking to people with less than perfect Japanese, and lack the skills/experience to infer the meaning. Particularly if you get even a single vowel sound in a word wrong and they struggle to make the correction in their mind.

Thanks ! Those are some excellent points too. I know that my Japanese pronunciation is far from perfect. And, growing up and living most of my life in the US, i was lucky to have the experience of having lots of friends and co-workers from all over the world...so I had gotten so used to imperfectly spoken or sounding English....that i was able to always understand others. I guess I need to find a good way to practice and improve my Japanese pronunciation now.

[goran]

....I wish I could read more advanced books in Japanese. As it is, i have a collection of short stories for beginners that are occasionally "fun" to read.....more from the "i think that i understood that" versus really being immersed in a story....

Just to piggyback on this, could you (or someone) recommend interesting Japanese books to start reading?
I use Japanese at my work, verbal as well as emails, everyday. So, with words or kanji's that I see often in my daily life, I have no problem.

But I want to step-up and venture into Japanese books or literature gradually. May be a 10 year long project.

[RetireJapan]

First manga I enjoyed reading in Japanese: ２０世紀少年 https://amzn.to/3OhWrDr
First book I enjoyed reading in Japanese: Haruki Murakami's 走ることについて語るときに僕の語ること https://amzn.to/3QoEnKB