Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

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nekomata
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Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

Post by nekomata »

Hello all, first time poster here. Thank you for this very useful website and forum!

My situation is probably a bit different from most posters here. My wife and I live in Europe, but we're thinking about moving to Japan in retirement. She's a Japanese national, but she left the country at the age of 22 and hasn't lived there since. We both live and work in Switzerland, which means both high salaries and a high cost of living by European standards. We already visit Japan every 2 years for extended holidays and visits to friends and family. Long-term residency shouldn't be a problem, and we're both familiar with the language, the culture and the general lifestyle. The difference in COL might even allow us to retire a bit earlier than if we stay in Switzerland. We still have years left until our earliest possible retirement date though, and we are still in the early stages of thinking about this.

Obviously we haven't paid a dime into the Japanese social security system throughout our working lives, and we know little about how taxes work and what other pitfalls may be waiting for people who move to Japan late in life. Most information that is available online (in English or Japanese) doesn't really seem to apply to our situation or is hard to parse. Our idea is to pay minimum living expenses from a fixed pension income: a Swiss company pension and Swiss social security, both paid out monthly in Swiss francs. We would complement this fixed income with variable withdrawals from our nest egg, which is in internationally diversified index funds. We're trying to work out what our net income would be in this case, and to identify possible problems with our approach. Some points:

Kokumin nenkin vs Swiss social security, and taxes after retirement
According to the social security treaty between Switzerland and Japan, we have the theoretical right to make the years we paid into the Swiss system count towards a kokumin nenkin pension plan and receive a Japanese state pension, but it looks like kokumin nenkin would pay out far less money than Swiss social security. So it would be better to simply take the Swiss SS directly and convert it into JPY. However, it is not clear to me how much we would have to pay in taxes and other contributions in Japan. If I read the treaty correctly (and that's a big if), we would have to
  • pay Japanese taxes on our Swiss SS payments. It's not clear to me whether there would be a tax-free portion to this pension, or whether it would simply count as income, with none of the reductions that Japanese pensioners receive
  • pay a withholding tax to the Swiss state on our company pensions that we can then reclaim from the Japanese tax office
  • probably be enrolled in kokumin nenkin until the age of 60? We wouldn't reach the 10 years needed for payouts
  • pay kaigo hoken, scaled to income
  • pay kokumin kenkô hoken, apparently also tied to your official Japanese retirement income above the age of 64
  • pay taxes on dividends and realized capital gains from our nest egg. There's no capital gains tax for long-term private investors in Switzerland, so it should make sense to sell all our ETFs while we're still in Switzerland and then reinvest the cash with a Japanese broker once we have moved. Unless the Japanese taxman objects to this practice?
In short, the tax situation looks complicated. We would probably have to pay more in taxes and contributions than people who have lived and worked in Japan, which is perfectly fine, but we can't really figure out what our net budget in retirement would be. Where could you get a reliable estimate on this? Are there zeirishi/financial advisors who don't just specialize in working expats and companies but also in international pensioners?

Currency risk
All our fixed income would be in CHF and all our living expenses in JPY. What if the CHF depreciates drastically against the JPY, as it did e.g. in 2008? Possible solutions: keep a JPY cash buffer, and invest a part of the nest egg into assets denominated in JPY?

Cuts to social security benefits
Then there's a non-negligible risk of the Swiss government slashing social security benefits sometime in the future due to demographic pressure, either for everybody or specifically for pensioners who live abroad.
Possible solutions: discount part of the planned for SS payments and plan with a larger nest egg or a lower withdrawal rate?

Any comments or ideas? Any other issues that we should be looking out for? The Swiss case might be a bit special, but maybe there are others from other countries who have similar plans for retirement, or have already implemented them. I would really appreciate your advice.
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Re: Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

Post by RetireJapan »

Your wife has the option of paying into nenkin on a voluntary basis: that may be worth doing. If your Swiss pensions will be larger than nenkin, it doesn't seem to make sense to transfer your eligibility.

You can have very low taxes in retirement if you live off investment income or savings (which are taxed separately from income if held in the right account).

Anyone else?
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Beaglehound
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Re: Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

Post by Beaglehound »

The OP seems to have a good handle on things but one specific point to add on nenkin: as a Japanese national I believe your wife will be able to count years spent out of Japan as if she had spent them here, so although she would not be credited with any actual contributions for that period, it does mean the 10 year minimum contribution will not be an issue. Even if she only pays in for five, she will get whatever pension accrues from that. I also think the same would apply to you were you to get permanent residency, but not on a spouse visa. This is known as ‘karakikan’. No personal experience but I think I read on here that it isn’t automatically applied and you have to get in touch with the pension office to make them aware. Others will know more.
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Re: Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

Post by mighty58 »

In wondering how often you see yourself dipping into your nest egg to supplement the pension. If you expect to be drawing down from it fairly regularly, I'd suggest looking into finding a way to transfer those holdings into a yen-denominated account (without needing to sell it first), if only to eliminate the FX risk from future drawdowns. I don't know how one would go about doing that... but you're in the private banking center of the world so I'm sure there must be someone in close proximity you can ask!
nekomata
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Re: Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

Post by nekomata »

Thank you all for your answers! We'll have to look into this nenkin pay-in option for my wife. It sounds like a good way to mitigate some currency and longevity risk.

I will also look into Japanese brokers and tax-advantaged accounts. Right now I'm with Interactive Brokers. I think I could just sell our funds before moving (as capital gains aren't taxed in Switzerland), convert the money into Yen at IB's fairly cheap FX rate and then transfer the cash to a Japanese account of my choice. Or am I missing something?
mighty58
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Re: Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

Post by mighty58 »

nekomata wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:21 pm (as capital gains aren't taxed in Switzerland)
Wow, did not know that! But yeah, the capital gains tax was my only concern, but if that doesn't apply then no worries there.
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Re: Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

Post by mule96 »

Another Swiss fellow here :)
nekomata wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:45 pm Kokumin nenkin vs Swiss social security, and taxes after retirement
According to the social security treaty between Switzerland and Japan, we have the theoretical right to make the years we paid into the Swiss system count towards a kokumin nenkin pension plan and receive a Japanese state pension, but it looks like kokumin nenkin would pay out far less money than Swiss social security.
I may be wrong here, but afaik the current treaty only counts years. So if you havent paid anything into the Japanese System, even if you get years, you get nothing. So a swiss rent is preferable.

nekomata wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:45 pm
  • pay Japanese taxes on our Swiss SS payments. It's not clear to me whether there would be a tax-free portion to this pension, or whether it would simply count as income, with none of the reductions that Japanese pensioners receive
  • pay a withholding tax to the Swiss state on our company pensions that we can then reclaim from the Japanese tax office
That is correct. The tax filling isn't that complicated but requires Japanese.
nekomata wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:45 pm I think I could just sell our funds before moving (as capital gains aren't taxed in Switzerland), convert the money into Yen at IB's fairly cheap FX rate and then transfer the cash to a Japanese account of my choice. Or am I missing something?
That should be no problem at all.
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Re: Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

Post by Tkydon »

Your Pension Income will be subject to Japanese Income Tax.

There is an Allowance for Public Pension Income (a little complicated)


'Public Pensions' means: public servant pensions, approved fund pensions, national pensions, or other pensions paid under social insurance schemes.

If your pension falls into one of these categories, then you should be able to claim the Public Pension Deduction.

The amount is calculated based on the total gross receipts of the public pension off-set against the total amount of all other sources of income you receive in the year.
Columns separated by ---
Gross Annual Pension --- Other Income < Y10M --- Y10M to Y20M --- > Y20M

Under 65.
Less than 1,300k --- 600k --- 500k --- 400k
1,300k to 4,100k --- 25% + 275k --- 25% + 175k --- 25% + 75k
4,100k to 7,700k --- 15% + 685k --- 15% + 585k --- 15% + 485k
7,700k to 10M --- 5% + 1,455k --- 5% + 1,355k --- 5% + 1,255k
Greater than 10M --- 1,955kh --- 1,855k --- 1,755k


Over 65.
Less than 1,300k --- 1,100k --- 1,000k --- 900k
1,300k to 4,100k --- 25% + 275k --- 25% + 175k --- 25% + 75k
4,100k to 7,700k --- 15% + 685k --- 15% + 585k --- 15% + 485k
7,700k to 10M --- 5% + 1,455k --- 5% + 1,355k --- 5% + 1,255k
Greater than 10M --- 1,955k --- 1,855k --- 1,755k


You can then take Standard Allowances
Basic (Self) 480,000
Spouse 380,000
etc..

Dividends and Capital Gains
If you Total Income is less than about Y8M, then it would be better to use the Aggregate Taxation Model, and your Dividends and Capital Gains will be taxed at your Marginal Income Tax Rate %, 2.1% of the total Tax amount Reconstruction, and 10% Resident's Taxes

If you Total Income is more than about Y8M, then it would be better to use the Separate Self Assessment Taxation Model, and your Dividends and Capital Gains will be taxed at their relative Tax rates, currently both the same 20.315% (15% National, 0.315% Reconstruction, and 5% Resident's Taxes)

You can then claim Foreign Tax Credits for any Taxes withheld in Switzerland up to the total National Income Tax liable.

Bear in mind that the Residential Tax will not apply to your first 12-18 months in Japan.
You will not have been resident in Japan on 1 Jan of Year 0 (the year you arrive). No Previous Year's Income (Year -1). Therefore no Resident's Tax payable Year 0 July to Year 1 June.
You will have been resident in Japan on 1 Jan of Year 1. Previous Year's Income (Year 0) only part of a year. Therefore, very low Resident's Tax payable from Year 1 July to Year 2 June.
You will have been resident in Japan on 1 Jan of Year 2. Previous Year's Income (Year 1) first full year. Therefore, normalized Resident's Tax payable from Year 2 July to Year 3 June.
...

Health Insurance premium

There is a good doc on Shibuya-ku's website, here:

https://www.city.shibuya.tokyo.jp/asset ... 056767.pdf

The premium is based on the previous tax year's income, say Jan-Dec 2021 and payable from July 2022 to June 2023
Last edited by Tkydon on Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
:
:
This Guide to Japanese Taxes, English and Japanese Tai-Yaku 対訳, is now a little dated:

https://zaik.jp/books/472-4

The Publisher is not planning to publish an update for '23 Tax Season.
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Re: Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

Post by Gulliver »

Tkydon wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:48 am There is an Allowance for Public Pension Income (a little complicated)
Could you or someone post a link where this information about a public pension allowance is located? Thanks
Tkydon
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Re: Retiring to Japan on a foreign pension (CH)

Post by Tkydon »

https://www.nta.go.jp/english/taxes/ind ... 020/01.pdf

See Pages 22-23
STEP3 Computation of the amount of deduction from public pensions, etc.
and
STEP4 Computation of miscellaneous income from public pensions, etc.


https://www.tax.metro.tokyo.lg.jp/book/ ... k2021e.pdf

See the tables on Page 8
:
:
This Guide to Japanese Taxes, English and Japanese Tai-Yaku 対訳, is now a little dated:

https://zaik.jp/books/472-4

The Publisher is not planning to publish an update for '23 Tax Season.
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